Star Wars vs Star Trek

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Pollux V, May 9, 2002.

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Which universe would win?

  1. Star Trek

    227 vote(s)
    35.5%
  2. Star Wars

    268 vote(s)
    41.9%
  3. Spaceballs

    47 vote(s)
    7.3%
  4. Farscape

    12 vote(s)
    1.9%
  5. Dune

    50 vote(s)
    7.8%
  6. Stargate

    36 vote(s)
    5.6%
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  1. Dontai Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    51
    Okay here is one, it's a logic problem. If, as you say, magnetically sealing something makes things immune to hand weaponry and we have proof that Star Wars can magnetically seal something, how come they don't magnetically seal the entire ship to help prevent bording party. All they have to do to get in to a room is blast open the door. New hope proved this. It would be smart to seal all door in magnetically sealing. So, how come they dont? Why? Becuase star ship are far to large and they can only magnetically seal small room and vital places not entire ships.

    Again, we did see it work , in your favorite thing, your damn novels. They talk about it and why they can't use it on ship armor or any thing bigger then garbage compactor. Fact is, magnetically sealing can stop ship weapons. They just dont use it to stop ship weapons, because they haven't figure out how to magnetically seal a enitre star ship. Like how they haven't figure out how to use anti matter. Bottom line: we can, you can't and it is cannon. O, yes, i do declare, that marvelous sound, is the sound of me winning.

    Scott, if you can't have an adult conversation, and can't stop resorting to calling people names ect, im going to declare star trek the winner just becuase, all star wars fan are whiney twelve years old who can't have it their way. My twelve year old cousin is better then you are at argument. He can, actully try to prove why turtle men and bat man is best show on tv with out having to resulting to name calling to get his way.

    He tries to have rational conversation, with out resorting to saying stuff like: survey only yourself and the voices in your head, You are still living in denial, Oh lord, proving your stupidity yet again, Then again it did sort out the idiots (you) from the people who could think (almost everyone else), Now when the rest of you get your crap together, Playing funny games like this to cover you delusions is childish, Dontai, dazzling them with bullshit. God. I can't believe how utterly stupide and uneducated that post is. Even thinking like that is moronic Man, you are a thundering moron ect. When, you can have conversation with twelve year old cousin and not grown human, that pretty pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    You fail at LIFE! I have the episode loaded up RIGHT NOW. Frame by frame - the core exploads before the right warp nacell even IMPACTS the Oddesy!

    2) Phased polaron beams disrupt shield formation, rending shields unstable. This means they are not completely up, nor completely down. Without the shield matrix being fully established, it isn't hard to pass through it. Duh.

    3) You just said the max theoretical is "only" 64 megatonns... and then you said they cannot be 20 kilotonnes... which is it? You just ocntradicted yourself!

    4) A Dominion Fighter's warp core blowing up far exceeds the output of a turbolaser. Just read that site I linked before.
     
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  5. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Oh god, that is the stupidiest fabrication I have ever heard.

    A) Show where they used Blasters to blow through doors. You can't becuase it doesn't exist. A New Hope initial boarding scene shows more of an effect of a plasma breaching device or cutting torch followed by explosives. Second how the hell is a Garbage compactor considered Vital, but not the control boxes for doorways, Bridge, or weapons arrays. Lastly you have no prove that it is effective against anything more powerful than Light Repeating Blasters (weapons used by Droidekas)

    Winning? More like losing.

    As for the Magnetic sealing, you resort to novels but then can't tell me which one I'll bet. Or if it is there at all it is one of the Barbara Hamlin novels, which is an author Lucas himself considers noncanon., but I'll bet not even there do you find anything that Magnetic Sealing defends against Capital ship weaponry. Why? Becuase even Hamlin's twisted view on the Science of Star Wars was not that niave.

    Now if you don't like my name calling then get a real argument. Don't resort to logical fallacies. Check your ideas past someone with a rudimentary knowledge of physics, chemistry, and debate. Then when you make your arguments present them as plainly as possible. Oh, and check your facts, Star Trek has been hoisting itself by it's own petard since the beginning of this argument. When you don't do these things and use arguments that have already been disproven you bring these observations upon yourself. Speak like a moron and I will label you a moron, after I prove you wrong of course so as to avoid the ad hominems.

    BTW your cousin sounds very mature for a twelve year old, maybe he should be the one making these arguments.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Show that then. Every break down I have seen, especially the ones done by Paramount show the Dominion fighter plowing trough the Engineering section and pieces of it coming through the Dorsal side of the engineering and striking the Nacelle before a very minor core breach, much smaller than others from Galaxy class Starships.

    Funny, Paramounts take is different, not to mention the script. It seems there that the Phased Polaron beam only deharmonize the shields in the area the beam strikes and possibly only while striking. Hardly matter anyway as I provided the energy produced by a Dominion fighter craft moving at roughly 1000 meters per second and it substantial but hardly awe inspiring.

    1.5 kilograms of Anitmatter with 1.5 kilograms of matter is only roughly 64 megatons. However nowhere in film will you find an explosion of a Photon Torpedo alone that is even the effect of Fat man or Little Boy the only two nuclear weapons dropped in War.

    [/quote]4) A Dominion Fighter's warp core blowing up far exceeds the output of a turbolaser. Just read that site I linked before.[/QUOTE]

    Well only if you have 300 plus kilograms of Anitmatter, but that hardly matters. The Dominion Fighter had destroyed the Odyssey before the Dominion crafts core did breach. Same with the kingon vessel later in the Dominion war. In both cases the ramming attack alone was enough to destroy the larger vessel. Now we know from physics that this attack produced far less energy than 12.5 gigatons, until the moment of the core breaches.

    Now imagine an energy beam that is 150 times what the Galaxy class ship can generate striking the ship dead on. Shields would give it a sub nanosecond puase before shorting out then the hull underneath wuld cave in and silutaneously vaporize. Deck by deck this beam would tear through the ship like a tank round through layers of 18 guage sheet metal, Blowing holes bick enough to drive a Tractor trailer through. Now imagine that the attacking ship fires twenty of these bolts in your direction at one moment. You return fire but your pahsers seeem completely ineffectual and your photon torpedoes fare little better as they impact on shields. Your shields are down you've got hullbreaches all over your ship then suddlenly a pair of beams lance out and your warp nacels are cut off like some naughty child plucking a flies wings.

    How would the Federation fight even one capatial ship that could do this to them then vanish off all sensors as it travels to other destination? How would it handle dozens? Hundreds? Thousands?
     
  8. Dontai Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    51
    Pricness leia: Luke their coming through. *luke turns and shoots the control panel causing the door to closes. Idiot stormtroopers are at a lost at what to do*

    Luke tries to get in to the detention level in death star. O no, the door is locked *Han shoot the control panel and the door is opened and star war is proven to be even stupid*

    Should i go on?

    *Scott, ask Dontai show where they used Blasters to open doors. So, dontai does proving scotts in idiot, who can't do more then say insult and non canon fact, disputing even what george lucas says.*

    Get a life scott, you have failed proved that star wars is as even has powerfull has most back words races in star trek. Plus, one ounce of criponite can do what your death star can do with a 400 terrwhat super lazer. It takes your death star to destroy a planet. It takes us an ounce of high explosive in bag and a match (Tos Whom Gods Destroy.) If kirk had not stop him he would took out earth and hafe galaxy with that stuff.

    One ounce of that stuff and the death star is gone. One pound your entire system is gone. One ounce and coruscant is gone. kironide mineral can turn any man in to nearly god like entity with power even greater then darth vader, infact greater then any jedi to ever walk face of both are universes. We match for you pound for pound. So shut up with your insult, you can't win and calling me names wont help you, only prove how much more of in idiot you are.

    PS: I go find that book it in my libary ... some were.
     
  9. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Posted by TW Scott
    Posted by Dontai
    There's a very slight difference between blowing a control panel out and blasting through a door, or are you sort of person who believes that walking through a doorway classes as walking through walls?
     
  10. DSG2k Registered Member

    Messages:
    17
    Slo-mo (x0.25):

    (Crap, URL ban for newbies) . . .

    Go to ST-v-SW.Net. Then append to the end of the URL:

    /videos/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyDies1.avi

    Pics of Impact:

    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam114.jpg
    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam115.jpg
    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam116.jpg
    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam117.jpg
    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam118.jpg
    /images/Trek/Series/DS9/DSN2-JemHadar-OdysseyRam119.jpg

    There is no evident crumple or damage prior to the Jem'Hadar ship going boom. Observe the JH port nacelle, with a logical impact site on the neck, and no apparent damage there.

    Really, the very thesis of contact between the vessels is open to question, though it seems quite likely that contact between the JH bow and the Odyssey did occur.
     
  11. DSG2k Registered Member

    Messages:
    17
    I agree that the blasters were not used to shoot through the detention cell door. Such a concept is often used as a way to claim that blasters are uber-powerful (a debate for a later time), but to the credit of TW Scott he has acknowledged the evidence of an additional piece of tech involved.
     
  12. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Luke shot the control panel of the doorway and unfortunately eneough the control panel for the bridge. Thus creating a short that made the normal door controls inoperable. Stormtroopers resorting to training start prying the door open as it is just an interior door and not a blast door.

    That didn't happen in the movie. They got inot detention level trhough trickery and a fire fight and Luke was easily able to open Leia's cell door while Han tries to stall dispatch. When he totally botches that he shoots the mike


    Scott Asks Dontai where they have used blaster to blow through doors, Dontair responds with misrememrnace of incidents barely involving blaster and doors, thus proving Dontai should quit while he is behind.


    Actually there is a problem here repeatibility. That one ounce of material was probably the only ounce in existance. Period. DeathStar is a armored, shielded battle station that can penetrate planetary shielding capable of deflecting impact from Luna sized Celestial bodies. It can do that once a day. Meanwhile the DeathStar II can perform the same feat every hour. So what if you have a super rare material that can be used to destroy a single planet. Star Wars has millions of settled worlds. You can get one planet, maybe, the Death Star can destroy 168 by the end of the week!


    On ounce may take out one of the Shield plates on the Death Star. Since only the the one ounce is ever mentioned there is no pound to even think of. As for the Mineral, how do you know it just doens't turn humans into weak Jedi. Jedi are all aboiut restraint of power and Sith about stealth and deception. No one can know how poerful one truly is. I mean Luke moved a frigging blackhole. Not even Q or Organians can claim to that one.

    Oh, I'm not the one proving myself an idiot and neither are you proving me an idiot. The job you are doing on yourself is enough.
     
  13. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    BTW on a side note the Mass of a JH FIghter craft is only 2,500 tons roughly or one quarter of the mass Mr Wong gives it credit for.


    No I will mention here that While Wong is correct that the majority of the JM fighter stopped in just beyond main deflector, there was obviously debris and remenants that tore through and damage the Starboard Nacelle.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2007
  14. Dontai Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    51
    Scott, why dont you just give up? 'the Star wars fan boys are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You are all that remains of their religion, none of your other star war fan boys are here. once you quite this thread, star trek will move unopposed, and star wars will fade in to darkness. It's unavoidable. Face it, we out number you and out gun you. No, illogical un cannon hubwash trickery you can speak can stop this fact, even if so deep down in side you have remove any trace common since. So much to the point, that you would make yourself believe anything to hold on to that dream. It won't changes the facts. Star wars is dieing. star trek is farthest from it. Star trek fan out number you, right now, four to one, and it seems your running out of any thing i can even call evidence.

    I await the end. Im sure ferengi could use your primitive ships ....
     
  15. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Very interesting speach, full of typos, grammar errors and odd statements. Star Wars fans are hardly extinct, my synaptically challenged opponent. True at this moment I am the only one in this thread arguing the right side, but that is out of faith that I will represent the Star Wars side fairly and I have. I have noticed that you and your lackeys have posted no evidence and have a strong aversion to official canon policy. It's sad really. No one is arguing wheter they are the better form of entertainment, or which has the geekiest fans. What we are arguing here is which one would win in a Universe against Universe war. There is a decided advantage in numbers, technology, tactics, strategy, industrial base, power generation and FTL speed. Star Wars so outclasses Star Trek in these regards that the contest is not even close. Even with homefield advantage Star Trek would be rolled over with little effort.


    Now unless you have an argument against Star Trek vessels being very flimsy in terms of Physical Impacts then don't bother posting.
     
  16. DSG2k Registered Member

    Messages:
    17
    A median value for the mass of the Jem'Hadar vessel, based on estimations using Voyager (700,000 tonnes) and the Enterprise-1701 (nearly a million tonnes) as baseline mass indicators, is 107,500 tonnes based on the volume of the Jem'Hadar ship, not 2500. Even lowballing it the vessel is at least 45,000 tonnes. Recall that this type of vessel can engage in an uncontrolled deorbit and planet-smacking without any obvious apparent damage.

    It's a starship, not a papier-mache pinata.

    There is no evidence of it being debris from the Jem'Hadar ship. It's a glowy piece of something from a big field of glowy stuff. Indeed, the angle of the object which strikes the nacelle strongly suggests an origin point on the starboard side of the deflector array, i.e. that it was a piece of the Odyssey.
     
  17. kenworth dude...**** it,lets go bowling Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,034
    wow......just......wow.
     
  18. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    This is where I say RTFM.

    That site has been linked and pointed to, it provides proof of many of the arguments we are throwing out at you (including proof by stop-motion analysis) and yet you completely disregard it.

    You Loose. Period. The End. Get your facts right or get out. The rest of the Star Wars fans have admited defeat and left in good graces... you alone continue to sling the proverbial mud!
     
  19. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    The Paramount figures state unequivably just less that 2500 tons.

    Remember it is just over 109 meters long. Which means it is longer than a foot ball field but certainly not as wide and from all acoounts less than 30 meters tall. If we were to assume 109m x 30 tall x 30 meters wide rectangular mass we get 98,100 cubic meters. If it were solid and composed of Titanium it would be 221068.35 meteric tons. Now given that the ships in question would compose less that 40% of the rectangular mass we wind up with 88,427.34 metric tons. No remember Tritanium is lighter than titanium and the ship is also composed of other light weight materials a savings of rought half, so 44,213.67 metric tons. Now add in the fact that it is not solid and probably 90% open air or gaseous fuel and you get 4,421.367 metric tons. Now of course there might be other lightning factors involved, but paramouints less than 2500 tons is certainly more realistic than your 45,000 ton minimum. Besides they deside what is canon, and you do not....



    Well, even if it is that it means Star Trek vessels are so fragile that a low power ram can destroy a whole vessel.
     
  20. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    RTFM? Oh your Rolling on The Floor Mauled. Okay got it now.

    I completely disregarded the site in question becuase it is known to be the laughing stock of the web. RSA doesn't even have a highschoolers understanding of physics and has completely ignored the rules of Canon and evidence. He has been Farked, twice, a dubious honor to say the least. All his points have such huge logic holes that children see through them. I ignored the site becuase it provides nothing of value.


    I have my facts right. I have argued down people much more intelligent and collected than yourself. In fact other Star Wars fans left becuase we had successfully defended our end from the treknobabble spewed by people like you. None of them admited defeat, however many many Star Trek fans have seen the light.



    Now come up with a legitimate argument or rebuttal that does not violate canon and we can possibly have a debate. Or keep on you curreent rute and be the laughing stock of the entire board.
     
  21. DSG2k Registered Member

    Messages:
    17
    Ah, you mean the unofficial DS9:TM figures, universally (and unequivocably) regarded as wrong and non-canon? The one with different ships having the same data? That "Paramount figure"?

    My estimate comes from the canon itself. Sternbach determined Voyager's mass by upscaling from the Apollo capsules, meaning that the 2500 tonne value would make the JH ship many times less massive per volume than Apollo. Those vessels were about as paper-thin and light as we could make them, had almost no drive systems (it's the capsule, remember), and certainly weren't intended for combat.

    Who says tritanium is lighter than titanium? Borg ship densities would suggest that it is *very* dense. The Borg use tritanium in their hulls, and even their wee little scouts mass over three times Voyager's mass.

    You may be thinking of duranium, which seems to be light and tough, albeit somewhat more brittle than some other Trek ubermaterials.

    Good, then I should be easy to debate, eh?

    Coming from a guy who's trying to use the DS9 Tech Manual like a canon resource, I can't help but find this statement amusing.

    As have most big-name sites on silly topics. Really, that's the best you can do?

    Funny, I seem to have given you info you lacked already.
     
  22. DSG2k Registered Member

    Messages:
    17
    Given your own posts you ought not call the kettle black.

    Let's ponder these:

    1. The Federation fields approximately 10,000 starships. The Empire has approximately 25,000 vessels of ISD firepower-equivalence (i.e. it could just be a zillion fighters or they could have a few thousand ISDs plus numerous smaller vessels . . . hence the equivalence).

    2. Tactically, ship-to-ship, the Empire is doomed. Star Trek vessels have a ridiculous advantage in weapons range and maneuverability, with decisive advantages in acceleration and firepower.

    On a fleet level it's almost as bad. The Battle of Coruscant and the Battle of Endor look like uncoordinated schoolyard fights between second-graders. At least Star Trek fleet actions show evidence of command and control.

    3. Strategically the Empire is hopeless. Their idea of fighting against an insurgent Rebellion which had excellent ships (by their own admission) was to waste resources on a huge battlestation equivalent to a stupid number of ships. Then, after that one was blown up, instead of learning their lesson they did it again.

    And in their desperate search for the Rebels, they expended a mere few thousand probe droids, instead of the *billions* they ought to have been able to produce and dispatch.

    Their one moment of glory was to lure the Rebels into a trap, but the trap was so poorly executed that they failed on every front.

    4. The Empire may have an advantage in FTL speed, but it's minimal. Using the Sullust-Endor trip gives the Empire a velocity in the warp 9.2+ range with endurance measured in days instead of hours, though there are significantly faster Federation ships. Common velocities are more equal.

    5. As for power generation, huge fusion plants like the Empire uses do not trump antimatter-fueled dilithium matrices. When a ship like Voyager can make as much or more power for longer duration, your ISD is looking pretty lame.

    In short, the Empire must win by lightning war with savage brutality and massive force concentration, hoping to win Federation surrender before the Federation can marshal its forces and crush the Empire, or the Empire must be transformed into a massive war-machine shipyard, fighting a heavy-losses total war of attrition lasting for years.

    Even in the latter, though, Starfleet's decisive technological advantages would probably thwart the Empire over time.
     
  23. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    DSG2K, you are a welcome site when many of my own allies have resorted to poor grammar and bad spelling. Welcome to the ranks of the Elite Force

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    @ Scott- I think my point has been re-proven plenty of times. Go to bed will you? It's over.
     
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