Star Wars vs Star Trek

That you can see one near miss and one glancing hit as two direct hits simply proves that you're making shit up, twisting and twisting vague evidence to support your position. Because that's all you have left.

I don't need to prove 200 gigatons. You need to disprove it with movie canon. You see, that's how it works. Lower canon stands unless directly contradicted by higher canon. So far, you haven't proven a lick of it.

All you've got is speculation. And sorry, that doesn't override canon.

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Just because you can interpret visual evidence in different ways doesn't make your point. That's not how it works. To override lower canon, you need to pull an example from higher canon that definitively overrides it, and that's just not easy to do. (Except for extremely clearcut examples like Boba Fett's past.) All you have is visual examples that don't serve to disprove any of the published numbers without wild, unbased speculation on your part, like it or not. It's clear your head is just too thick to realize that.

And back on topic, you still haven't shown how Trek is superior. I doubt you ever will.

 

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Wow. You're wrong again! Amazing. The sensor globe went up after extended bombardment from the entire rebel fleet brought the Executor's bridge deflectors down, and also did damage to her drive and control systems.

Yet another example of your tenuous grip on reality.

The shields were down, otherwise the X-wings wouldn't have been able to make a scratch. And here we have what could actually be a clear example of kiloton firepower as their shots blow the large 41 meter diameter globe to bits.

I see stupid people who are consistently wrong about details and think they can get away with it.

 

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Note, those 41 meter diameter Globes on the Executer are actually part of the Sensor array. And Sian is correct normally proton torpedoes would not do quite so much damage to a a SSD if the shields are up.

 

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Weren't even torpedoes, Scott. Laser cannons only in that shot.

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Now about the delayed Star Trek vs Dune bit..

I dunno. human civilization in Dune had to expand outside the galactic boundaries because it was getting to crowded, if I recall. Now I'm not very up on the technical aspects of the universe, so someone would probably have to jump in here.. but between the sheer size, personal shielding, the Bene Gesserit, crazy scary Frehmen and Sardukar and some incredible Mentat strategists, it's looking pretty iffy for the trekkers. The only mitigating factor here is that the Spacing Guild would do *ANYTHING* to keep Trek's warp travel from getting in the hands of anyone, provided that warp travel is fast enough to be useful. I'm not sure of travel speeds in Dune, though I think it's pretty quick.

 

While I agree they are sensor domes, you'll have to give me a source for that quote you gave, Sian, as I've never seen any higher canon spesifically state they are either shield generators (which they are not, a common mistake by most people) or sensor domes.

Also, it was 2 A-wings attacking, not X-wings.
And yes, they were using their cannons and not their launchers against the sensor domes.

 

Hey I callit as I see it...You just seem to be in denial.
I don't have to make it up.
It's not vague...anyone can see Artoo's dome is clearly in the path of the strike not twice but both times.

Thank God that's what I did. Theres you film canon showing you two direct hits....I'm mean lets face it Sian...you decided that no matter what I showed as evidence you were going to fight this tooth and nail....
You decided that your tools of wars would be character assinations and parady jokes and anything else....You've set fire to the English language and roughed up the smooth side of good behavior to disprove me...

But have you really?
Do you really think I'm here for your benefit?
hmmm...think again.

If you recall that's my accusation against you since you gave.
Not one of the questions I posed to you did you answer with canon of anykind.

Saying speculations...and proving it...that's a completely different thing.
You prove speculations when you don't show proof of your claim.

Don't be sorry..think better of yourself.
Then get over yourself.

No interpretation required...Two direct hits. No shield. Direct contradiction of Canon ICS statements of fighter fire power.

Only because you'll never recognize it...I'm glad you're not the judge.

hmmm.....lets see..who's thick headed...and I don't mean in a frothy heady beer like way.

Let's face it...I doubt the Empire, as dastardly as it is, has ever conceived of 5,000,000 ISO Ton War Head...

What you ask...is an iso ton? I don't know...but obviously it's enough destructive power to destroy the Death Star. And the Borg have the tech...which is all assimilated technology.

You see I've been working on a theory for some time that Trek just doesn't do fire power. Not part of normal opperation.


example In TNG the explosions were huge...The torpedo that destroyed the Lantree completely vaporized it's targets...Those are canon representations. No debris left over what's so ever.

example
Enterprise vs the Borg Cube:

Enterprise first encounter showed that Explosions were useless against the Borg. At no time in TNG did we ever see those Torpodes do any damage to a Borg ship.

What did...

The phasers. And as I've been restrained by Paramounts canon policy and By the Great TWScott himself from referring to the TNG of DS9 tech manuels for directions on numbers...I must rely solely on the On screen.

What ever will I do...

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Heres more Cannon in your eye...

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So I did a few calculations...simple I'm sure you can imagine to understand just how much of the Borg Cube the Enterprise took out...

Well the Cubes I found ranged and varied but 3040 was the one I landed on.
In TNG

WORF
They have sustained damage to
twenty percent of their vessel.
Life support minimal.

So I did quick cal...
3040 meters cube...Enterprise did in 3 seconds destroyed 3 sections of the ship If we edit out orders to fire and purely focuse on firing time...

Cubes are made up of metal alloys that the Borg find useful yet at this time they depended on fields and shields as more effiecient.

The Enterprise destroyed with it's phasers a volume of 202 meters of Borg space ship. And it what completely vaporize.

This is trump on Star Wars...
The Enteprise has shown that when it needs it, it has the fire power to put down. 202 meters is short of the lenght of the USS Reliant....If Reliant had been under those guns...It would have been vaporized like the Lantre was with the Torpedo...

Granted...It wasn't solide metal...
Neither is an asteroid solid rock... In both there are gaps...space filled.

Enterprise destroyed a space more than 5 times the area of a asteroid at 40 meters.

No the Cube wasn't armored we're talking alloy vs un refined rock...
Who ever takes out the better opponet...wins..

rock, paper, alloy...

Trek...
Trek has shown no probelms with firepower and achieving the fire power necessary. As mentioned before the Enterprise's phaser's bored a whole 2 kilometers deep....and don't think that was a max power output...I can confirm that the phasers had to be configured first.

All ready that's two occasions where a ship was utterly vaporized...There are more...

If we really want to compare vaporization techiques Star Trek has more the Wars hands down...

6 or so 20 meter long fighters vaporized with nary an after thought. No debris left over...I don't need uncanon calulations the ship was totally...vaporized.

Prove the fire power is better that Star Wars...that's been done.

And as for you 400 GIGA WATTs remeber...
It said particle energy... It was a particle beam...Whether that took down the shields or the particle beam took down the shields or whether both did...is unknown...There was no analysis of the beams composition. But it definitely wasn't a laser.

Remeber too...Acording to Canon...
Star War's uses turbolasers. 200 Giga tons or not...They have a limited effect on Star Trek shields. As in ....No effect...

This if I'm constrained to observe canon then this is open an shut.

So this was pretty easy...
You shot your mouth off and said I was twisting canon.
Seeing is believing and hearing is understanding...

Trek has nothing to worry about from Turbo lasers. This was a non-issue.
Pretty much because you don't want to see the reasonable side of things. You are lacking in agreement less it agrees with 100%

A theory which I tested.
You offer up excuse upon excuse upon excuse, endlessly the excuses drown me. It's sea of off the cuff excuses...

Let me illistrate.

"Leia got hit by the same blaster fire Artoo go hit by"

Sian: Leia was wearing a blaster proof blouse...OF COURSE!!! DUH!!!
Sian: It was a hit to the control panel the surge took out Artoo.

But Artoo was actually partly behind an overhand. There was no angle to the shot the fire was and blast were all over ARtoo...and the shot it'self is pointing directly at his panel door...what the heck?

Sian: It is not you ******* retard you're twisting the canon!!! YOU'RE A MORON!!! YOU'RE PLUCKING **** all of your *(*^&^%^%$& and several more neanderthal like responses just oozing with intelligence.

but wait are you saying that Leias blaster blouse is better than Artoo's star fighter armor?

Sian: You're an @%!@%@ Saquist you're twisting canon...and that not@#%!@ superior canon...that #!@#$ doesn't contradict canon...

(I'm thinking alright shut up already)


I say: That sub kiloton tank just blew up your neutronium lined star fighter.

TWSCOTT: LIES !!! LIES!!! IT's ALL Lies YOU SKEEMING NO GOOD TREK FAN!!!

Sian: YOU CAN PROVE IT WAS SUBKILTON!!!!

(all rightyyyy then)

"It was a dirt geyser." That's it...no explosion

"IT WAS THE LOWER MOUNTED GUNS STUPID!!!!"

So what...Are you saying they never fired the main barrel on the battlefield?

Sian: Silence

(*sigh*)

I say. "That y-ing went down to a grazing shot...where were the shields"

Sian: (silence)

"That X wing just blew up a shield generator on the Star Destroyer"
Sian: (silence)

Hello?
(I think some one's train of thought is still boarding at the station)

It think you get the idea from this summary and amaZngly it's acurate up and untill the crude and violent posturing which I will not repeat.

Seems like you got a lot of holes in that LFL there. I know you put alot of faith in George Lucas but don't you think it's time you think for yourself. Slavery ended along time ago.

What I've gathered so far is the LFL is right no matter what... Holes and all. The sign on Sian's doorstep reads "No reasoning allowed" "Speculation only"

So he'll ...pardon...you..will come back with..."those aren't lasers!!!!!!@#!@#"

Are you a freaking moron?

All right...so... I was wrong...he's right their not lasers..BUT...the creator did say they were lasers....you remember this argument. You ended with a temper tantrum...but...that wasn't the end.

You're reasonable when you want to be reasonable...or...You're just totally infavor of Star Wars that reason...is just a tool you use if you need it. And because Leia obviously has a blaster proof blouse on...

And Artoo wasn't "damaged" he was shocked... Strangely artoo was completely inopperable and Leia was up in no time!
Maybe he needs a blaster proof blouse?

 

Sorry...superior canon dictates to lower canon.
The Imperial officer says after there destruction..."We've lost our bridge deflector shield."

ooh...tenuous....

Sorry...Sian...the shields weren't down yet...
another flaw...

I'll keep that close...Thanks Sian...

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You too are horribly wrong...The shields were still up when the first shield generator was destroyed.

 

Yes appearences are that the designer of the Star Destroyer created them to be sensor domes. His designs say so.

However I've review the novelization...It doesn't say sensor domes...infacts it acts as though the scene dosen't exist cause it doesn't say anything.

There are differences in the film and the EU...He's says that it different from his own little universe...and it's abundantly clear.

However the film implies it. That's how directing and film works. They show a scene and the effects of the seen. We're left to undertand with every bit of reason that those globes for the movie were shield generators..

In any case shields or sensor...The fighters were clearly firing through the shields. Then the shields collasped.

 

It was established already back in 1978 (first EU source for them being sensors) that they were sensory domes.
No film evidence has ever contradicted it since. And the rest of EU is divided. In fact, those working on the Executors domes confirm them being sensory domes (or radar domes as they put it).

First time mentioned at all as them being shield generators are from the game X-Wing from 1992 (or was it 93?) to make the ships easier to destroy (first EU source they were shield generators). Later games, such as TIE Figther who portraid the Victory-class star destroyer, had no effect on shielding when the domes were destroyed.

Some people have chosen to compremise and say it is both: It's a sensory dome, and the pikes are shield emitters (not the actual generators).

Either way you look at it, there is an in-universe explaination for it aswell presented in the X-Wing Collectors CD that came out late -90's I believe, stating that pre-ESB, the SD's 'Achilles heel' was removed, so by the time of RotJ this would never have been a problem.

 

Into the Worlds: Star Wars Trilogy, page 46. A cutaway of the Executor's bridge identifies elements of the globes:

Long range scanners feed targeting information to the ship's weapon systems.

Hyperwave transciever coils

Local-area shield projection vanes.

And just to piss Saquist off.. from the same book, same page, which is a higher canon source than the boy's incorrect perceptions of the movie, conclusive proof of the order of events:

At Endor, pounded mercilessly by the capital ships of the Rebel Alliance flotilla, the ship's shields fail. At that moment, the Rebels are able to strafe the command tower--and with the Executor's navigation suite in ruins and defensive guns losing coordination, a careening A-wing destroys the bridge.

There you have it, folks. Rebel bombardment dropped the shields, fighter-craft took advantage of the opening. And Saquist is, predictably, wrong again. The fighters couldn't have hoped to damage the sensor globes if the shields weren't down.

 

Oh, and since Saquist is so up on science..

iso is the standard prefix for 10^0, otherwise known as 1. so 5,000,000 isotons is 5 million tons. That's the size of a medium-sized nuclear device today. Assuming they redefined it at some point, I already gave the theoretical output of a Federation Isoton a couple of pages back, and it still isn't that impressive against the canon Star Wars numbers.

 

Which would match the visuals we get from Photon torpedoes, 25 tons of TNT and upto 500 tons from Quantum Torpedoes. Watch the shows and movies and you never see a Torpedo explode with any sort of kiloton level effect. The one exeption is Skin of Evil, but the Photon Torpedo presumably detonated the Shuttles warp core.

 

Now explain why the A-Wings and X-Wings were making it a priority target even after Ackbar ordered the destruction of Executor. And you would have sold me.

A Void if unexceptable.
Surfice it to say it is enough of a contradiction for the tactics of battle to imply these are priority targets. It is also enough implication in the world of directing to produce the conclusion that the focus of those scenes was building causes and efforts that would lead to the Executor's end.

The argument that these were merely sensor domes leaves a vaccuum in tactics.

OH no...you have to do much more to "piss me off" Sian.
The movie was in strict chronological order. My perceptions don't come into play...It' the validity in canon your source has....

Movies play a higher role.
The Rebel ships were not seen to the naked eye firing on Imperial warships...or vise versa. Any one can make this up and have it published. That why Lucas said in so little words that EU has but a passing relationship to his on screen creations.

If what you said was true he would have taken the opportunity to correct the "perception" of the movie to reflect the source you stated. However in the Special Edition while many things changed....There was still no bonbardment. The fighters still flew through the shields...The fighters were the only ones targeting the shield generators.

We don't have to speculate on this. George Lucas say their shield generators and they were pivotable to the destruction of the Executor hense why they were on screen.

Logical.

Since I'm in the drafting field...the only knowledge I have about the prefix ISO

is the International Organization for Standardization ISO

It refers to no particular designation of number but it does refer to globally accepted standards or universal...

Like ANSI standards and I think theres one more... What's obvious to me...Is the ISO still exist in the 24 century and have since the on set of space travel have establish a stardard that phases out the singularly used American Standards...inches yards miles and gallons.

What they designated ISO to stand for...I don't know. But if it's like anything It'll be a base 10 number.


And seeing as Janeway and Seven of NINE and Tuvok are all in Agreement...what ever it is 5,000,000,000 tons of it are...we know it's enough to destroy a solar system. This is something which is likely on the scale of the Genesis Devices explosion.
--------------------------------------

Sian and TWSCOTT

Your strategy of Canon/turnabout/ Uncanon/turnabout/canon/ turnabout/speculation....

may seem reasonable to you...but it's more than established that your goal isn't to make sense of canon...it's to make right of canon...and you're doing so any way you can.

I don't think you could walk the canon line anymore that a drunk. Nor could you reason out the truth in the canon than could a court apointed district attorney.

I understand....you're just getting the job done. You don't have to put any effort but follow canon. It's the lying I have a problem with and you do so only on your clients behalf...

BUT OF COURSE...

Arguing in favor of Trek never occured to you...sadly arguing the truth hasn't occured to either.

I can't do as you do..I love most sci fi...I'm a sci fi guy and I don't see lonely old Trek and Lonely ole' Wars as a stand alone best....certainly quality, no...

It just seems I'm being more objective than you are....
But I have to...If I want my story Star Wars-Star Trek~Cataclysm to make sense and bring the two sides together for more than a conquest then I'll have to find a settling point.

Star War's can't be weak but Trek can't simply be a push over either. It's the basis for suspense. And your arguements have been conditioning me to both sides of the fense.

Know that I don't hate you TWScott nor you Sian although, Sian, nothing persnal but you rate high on my never get to know a pitbull list.

 

another i didn't mention is that star wars doesn't have any stealthy ships.

 

I don't have to sell it to you, or anyone. I'm only stating what's accurate from what we actually know.
It's your choice wether to take that in or not. Makes no matter to me, I enjoy watching you guys duke it out.

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I just hate it when you guys arn't accurate.

That EU has not done it's homework is not a new thing. That newer sources have cited and copied previous sources, wether right or wrong, is not a new thing either, and has been a problem for years. Most higher sources indicate and support they are sensor domes. And the highest source do not conflict with this. They look like sensory devices, and it makes sense to perch them high above to give the best possible coverage, while putting shield generators outside the primary hull high above does not make sense at all. There are no advantages in doing so, otherwise every ship would do it. But fact is, other ships have their shield generators within the main hull, protected. And they are protected by shields which fighters don't have much chance to penetrate. This stated by Ackbar, so your statement that the fighters were under the shields does not stick. Not when you also consider deflector shields extend only a few centimeters above the hull.
The destruction of the globes by fighters was merely a visual aid to indicate to us that the shields were already down.

What's stated the most is not necessarly the right thing.

The length of the Executor comes to mind.
For years (30 to be exact) numerous sources have stated the incorrect length. That includes STARWARS.com, which you would think should be the most reliable source available to the public.
It all started with a poster back in 1980 when ESB came out, that stated that the Executor was 5 times more powerfull (accurate wording: larger and stronger) than a standard star destroyer. This became the beginning of the 8km fallacy that still haunts some sources to this date. I read somewhere that WEG (West End Games) is stubbornly sticking to that length, but that was a few years ago so I'm not sure about their standpoint on the matter today. In the late -90's, STARWARS.com aswell as LucasArts with their Behind the Magic CD-ROM upgraded this length to 12.8km by basically saying that the 8km should really be 8 miles. The CD though still use the 8km and 12.8km here and there thruout. This was more accurate, but still very wrong as pointed out by Curtis Saxton as far back as 1995 when he launched his site Star Wars Technical Commentaries (which would later be one of the reasons he landed the writing job with Lucas Books to write EPII and III Cross Sections, taking over for David West Reynolds (which is probably the second reason for the job, as he has had contact with him thru the years, getting measurments from the actual Executor model used in the films thru him for instance)).
Thanks to Reynolds' measurements and other considerations, such as all star destroyers built by Kuat Drive Yards appear to have the same dimensions for their bridge command towers (atleast judging by the movies), he concluded it's true length had to be 17.6km+-0.2km. Only late summer/early fall 2005 did STARWARS.com finally upgrade yet again the Executors length to a more accurate length of 19km. And this time they say they have measured it, though they have not stated how they got to this value. All I can find is that they have come to the model being 282cm long.
Reynolds came to 277cm.

Either way, I tend to look thru the fingers if anyone state the 19km value. But if anyone tries to use the 12.8, or even worse, the 8km fallacy, I'm there immediatly pointing out their error.

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As a sidenote, the exhibition in San Francisco many, many years ago, the model of the Executor used in the films had a technical specification card produced by ILM, saying it was 18km long.