Star Wars vs Star Trek

How many bullets did Picard fire before they died, say 50 for arguements sake

fire 2 phaser shoots in a row they have adapted, then why couldnt they adapt after 50 bullets? because they cant? well really because if they did picard would have died and that would have been the end of the show which the writers didnt want


Secondly your calculations are mute because A) one sith ship destroyed a whole planet and B) because your calculations were from ONE quote of some little fringe pilot. How the hell would he know EXACTLY how many ships it would take he cant even calculate his own light speed jumps. He was just trying to dismiss the horror of that action

 

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Answers to the following:

A) I assume he was using the force. If he did, and that is valid, Q can snap his fingers and every Storm Trooper is turned into a Care Bear.

B) I quote from Han: "Han: The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take a thousand ships with more fire power than I've... there's another ship comin' in!"

Now, does the Empire have only 1000 ships? Or the 25,000 the books claim? Since the movie is higher canon, the Empire only has 1000 ships. In which case, it couldnt possibly defend the entire Empire against the Borg, and a single Empire world taken by the Borg means a permanent, ineradicable presence in the Galaxy Far Far Away.

That quote says that the entire fleet of Imperial ships cant destroy the whole planet. And if 1000 Bioships can do it and 8472 has THOUSANDS...

Which is why I said that Z>25000Y, but I am rounding it down to Z=25000y. It actually makes SW weapons stronger by making it equal to instead of greater than.

Onto the bullets, it was 50 bullets over 5 seconds, by which time, the Borg was dead. Maybe if he tried firing again, the Borg would have adapted.

 

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firstly i have no idea why you are talking about the force, Han doesnt have it

Secondly your assuming that because he said it would take 1000 ships that they dont have more than that. After all you dont put all your forces in one spot, they have others on other worlds keeping order, guarding coricent ect

thirdly your assuming he was calculating correctly rather than pulling a number out of his ass because he didnt want to belive alderon was destroyed

 

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Firstly, I pulled the force because you said the Sith ship destroyed a planet. Where did he do this? He most likely used the force to destroy the planet, bringing Q's powers into play since if you can use supernatural, we can also.

Secondly, Of course you dont put all your forces in one spot. That is why Han was aghast that Alderaan was destroyed since he knew it would take more firepower than the ENTIRE IMPERIAL FLEET.

Thirdly, he knows what he is talking about. Remember, he worked in the Imperial Navy when he was younger and became Lieutenant. He knows about Imperial technology, or else he wouldnt have known about the blind spot on the ISDs.

 

well firstly i was refering to the game KOTOR where it was a SHIP not the force.

Secondly Han didnt even know about the forces in the outer regions (i cant rember the name of the admiral comanding them)

thirdly how long ago did Han leave the empire, think they may have built a few ships since he left and may have advanced there tech a bit

and forthly the old rep had WAY more tech than was avialable after the empire started the war

 

#1, Kotor is not real canon, and if were, it was not one ship. The huge chunk of the Sith Fleet bombed Taris. If you notice the cinematic when you leave the city on the Ebon Hawk, each turbolaser blast only destroys a single building. They bombed for a LOONG time and did not manage to harm the lower city or the under city.

#2, He CLEARLY states that it would take more firepower than the entire fleet. NOTHING can dispute that. He was an officer in the Empire and he'd better have known about where the Imperial ships are because he is a smuggler and doesnt want to get involved with the Empire.

#4, maybe so, but in this "fight", their shipyards would be taken over by the Empire. They cant cooexist with each other since they used to own the same space.

 

Actually...the M16 was a holographic weapon that Picard grabbed. What the Borg were killed by would have been closer to a solid light ostruction "beamed" into their bodies, which would have been how the bullets would have been manifested. Voyager's Doctor demonstrated his ability to change tangibility - this would have been exactly the way that the holographic M16 bullets worked.

A little more difficult to adjust to right? Further, it'd belie the effectiveness of actual M16 auto machine guns.

 

Well, I am not in the business of defending Dr. Wong. However, his thermodynamic calculations look good to me. And I do have a thermodynamic background. If you wish to inform me of mistakes in his calculations please do so specifically until then I have no reason to believe he is mistaken.

True, but that doesn't mean we can't use science to explain an observation in a movie when the movie doesn't give detailed specifics.

 

It would indicate that future janeways future weapons are far more powerful then current TL bolts yes.

You don't need to find it. The clip you are refering to is the one I posted. Watch the clip, the voy crew members said the ship was just starting to power up. So this event indicates one of two things:

1. Voy shileds are more powerful than a borg tactical cube.
2. The bio ship wasn't fully powered yet when it fired.

You choose which you would like to believe.

 

Re-read my post and focus on the part where I said (maybe / maybe not).


Thanks for re-iterating what I said.

 

Enterprise-D thats not what HE said to the chick. what he said was when he took the safties off it replicated the tomy gun (wasnt actually an M16, i just think that if a tomy gun works so will an M16). So it was beemed it was created

 

He actually used a big 1930-s or so Machine Gun.

 

I actually dont think that Voyager shields are stronger than a borg tactical cube.

Borg shields rely on adaptation. They need to be fired at once and they need to survive to relay the correct codes to immunize the entire collective.

Now, as Star Wars has about 70-80 HTLs/ISD, a single shot from one of them should not destroy the Borg Cube. The entire fleet is not immunized.

And, 2. I guess you are right. But, if it were powering up, one would assume it would be atleast at 20% power. That is still a hell of a lot, as that means that Voyager's shields are 4.4 × 10^28 joules (calculated as (2.2 * (10^32)) * (1 / 5000)in strength atleast, as Voyager still had shields after.

Now, yes. You do admit that Cubes can take out an ISD as it would basically require 4.7e8 (which is 470,000,000) Turbolaser bolts. The question arises, do the Borg still exist.

This is moot for two points. Firstly, a single pair of Janeway's trans-phasic torpedoes can do as much damage as 470,000,000 turbolaser bolts. And, if you are going to consider the fact that the Borg being crippled as part of the fight, the Empire is crippled also.

Furthermore, for the purposes of this competition, we *all* decided, about 200 pages back, that all eras mentioned in canon are relevant.

Thanks for being neutral and objective, John. I am just summarizing the points down.

 

Finally Common Sense arrives.
(I don't mean the rapper)

I so tire of people attempting to determine 3D dimensional figures derived from a 2D perspective. The varriable are incredibly arbitrary. The figures done by G2k and Wong are what I call a waste of litteralness.

It's not necessary to go to such lengths to determine which is more powerfull or effect. Simply comparisons are the only thing you can hope for.

 

The Thompson Sub Machine Gun with Barrel Clip is the weapon Picard used in First Contact.

Those bullets... they were NOT REAL. They were a HOLOGRAPHIC PROJECTION. However, with the safeties disabled, the holodeck suite created a representation of the damage wherever the bullets ended up. As a result, the borg had holographic particles becoming "physical" entities INSIDE their personal shields and impacting their bodies! There was no time to adapt.

Also, that ENTIRE SCENE was maybe 5-8 seconds long... Nowhere NEAR enough time to adapt from taking hits from energy weapons you are USED to being hit by to an unknown weapon you have likely never seen before!

Also - Star Trek can have the Q... Period. There is no reason they cannot. Unless, of course, you want to remove ALL the "supernatural" entities... this means it's purely human vs human... yeah. That wouldn't go well... be quite boring actually!

John, the reason Wong's calculations are wrong is simple - they are just too strong for what we VISUALLY SEE happen in the movies. Wong has taken the HIGHEST POSSIBLE numbers from the novels and used them as "cannon fact". He then takes the LOWEST POSSIBLE numbers from Star Trek movies and episodes and uses them as "cannon fact". That's

A) stupid
B) not fair
C) showing an obvious bias

I love both shows... I think Trek is more 'advanced' as far as being something more sophisticated and tech-minded people would like. Wars is more 'advanced' as far as being a more action-oriented good guy triumphs over evil thing that younger people or those looking for an "ACTION MOVIE" would like.

Two very different clients that are being served by the shows we are trying to compare.

However, there is a few reasons why Trek would win:

1) The Future Federation exists. It's cannon. It can now, never, not exist. They will use TEMPORAL INCURSION to make sure they never "fail" to exist. If that means they need to go back four billion years and vaporize the Wars universe before they have a means of exo-atmospheric flight, they will do it.

2) The Federation, and indeed, all of Star Trek has shown an incredible ability to adapt and make a good thing out of a bad situation. They also have some INCREDIBLE engineers like Geordie LaForge and Montgomery Scott... even Picard is great in this respect. Hell, look at Weasley Crusher! The fact that most of the factions can, and have, banded together to fight a common enemy shows their ability to adapt.

3) Even in times of dire need, Wars has shown a desperate inability to work together. The 'Vong are easily more powerful than the Empire or New Republic alone... yet they can't really seem to get it together to work as a team. Faced with EXTERMINATION they still fought with each other instead of fighting WITH each other.

4) Borg... nuff said. You killed a hundred cubes, great. There's the next thousand and, oh, by the way, they are immune to all your weapons now.

5) Q... again, nuff said. Q - "I rather dislike you now." *snaps fingers* *whatever or whoever he was talking to simply ceases to exist* Rather difficult to fight something like that.

6) Sisko, Picard, Janeway, Kirk - you can't deny that these mere CAPTAINS have more brains individually than the crews of every Star Destroyer in the imperial fleet. They aren't afraid to directly disobey orders when they know they must... hell, both Kirk and Picard have KILLED superiors knowing they were being controlled!

I can list a few more, but I think I'm showing what I mean now...

Wars has a few advantages, but they're also disadvantages.

1) HUGE capital ships... great, you have an immense amount of firepower... only one problem. Trek packs almost a quarter that power into a ship 1/100,000th the size!

2) Same ships... the Wars Cap ship cannot maneuver well... that Trek ships can go full warp reverse to full warp ahead in less than 1/10th of a second (yes, it's been done on screen)

3) Phasers vs Lasers - it should be self evident the advantages here. A PHASER can be modulated, modified, adapted, re-frequencied, and a number of other things that make it a multitude of times more effective than it was before.

4) Shields vs Screens - in Trek they have fully encompassing, variable frequency, neutation, power, size, and direction shields. They can alter almost every single aspect of their shields to make them more effective, given they know what's hitting them. In Wars... well, they can dump more power into them and change their angle of deflection... cap ships don't seem to be able to do even that much. Should a shield go down, they just direct more weapons fire in that direction... they dont' even turn to hide that shield. At least in Trek they have the common sense to NOT let the enemy fire at an unshielded point on the ship if they can help it.

That's all for now.

 

Er Kitt just to let you know when the Vong attacked the galaxy, well the Empire, New Republic and even the Mandos teamed up to fight them, forming the Galactic Alliance

 

AND... when the Dominion attacked, the entire Alpha Quadrant teamed up.

When 8472 attacked, the Borg teamed up with the Federation.

When the Borg attacked, 8472 teamed up with the Federation (and left on good terms).

Worf has caused the Klingons to be in a very good relationship with the Federation.

And, the Romulans even JOINED Starfleet for the Dominion war.

Also, this has been estabilished that the Empire invades the Milky Way, and the Republic will in NO WAY help the Empire in a war of aggression.

And. I need an answer. WHAT CAN DEFEAT Q?

Seriously. Other than getting into the Q Continuum and using their own weapons against them, there is no defense.

 

Agreed.

Well, its completely possible that is true. But I don't see any reason for the borg to make their shielding technology simply based off of adaption. It very well could be both adaption and regular trek shielding. Who knows.

Right, thats what I proved. However, it seems evident from canon evidence I have seen that it is the borg alone that would be the saviors of the milky way from the Sith controled empire. Ironic no?

Yeah I agree, I think the reason voy survived a shot that should have vaporized their entire ship is because the bio ship was still powering up. What percentage, who knows. No canon information is provided to determine that. So its pointless for me to try to guess as it wouldn't even be an intellegent guess.

Well it depends. First off I have no idea how much these torps do. Im not a trekie. I don't know if these torps are causing all this damage through shear energy output or if its something more like slipping a reg powered torp behind defense system via some radical technology. I have no idea.

But I think its pretty clear that these future weapons would be a huge improvement to the federation tech that the empire would encounter.

Further more, the question isn't just have the borged survived. Rather what level of survival have they achieved. This answer could be as simply as little to no damage and they just made a new router...erm... queen or as severe as collective is factured/destroyed and now they many splinter borg collectives (or they are all dead).

Who knows.

 

Oh I think its very obvious Dr. Wong has a bias. He likes wars a lot more. I don't know about what he says is true for trek has any credibility or not but realize one thing. I used his numbers to prove that a tactical borg cube has insanely more powerful shielding than any federation or ISD vessel. I agree with wong that the feds would be easy prey for imp tech. But the borg are a sleeping giant that the empire better not mess with.

What is seen is the complete vaporization of a astroid within a specific time frame. This is canon. Assuming a standard astroid composition its easy to determine how much energy that space rock was subjected to using simply thermodynamic equations.

From what I have seen Wongs calculations are good. So I see his energy levels as close to canon as one can get besides a metric energy level being stated in a movie. If you disagree please show me where in his calculations he is wrong.

 

Then the two cannot be compared.