Star Wars vs Star Trek

That's because ego drives you.

I already posted the definition of logic but like Apocalypse2001 has noted...you ignore a lot....of what you're told. You denounced logic and that is a matter of record. You cannot claim to want reason and yet denounce logic. You are a walking talking contradiction in every sense of the word. You are the pinnacle of unreasonable at this point.

Logic: 1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference. 2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation 4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:

You've chosen your own definition which means you are beyond conventional reasoning. SO if it is sound judgment for the Star Destroyers shields to be online in an asteroid field...then you don't need "proof", as you call it for it to be logical. What is needed is undeniable proof that says the shield weren't online, not support...proof that the Star Destroyers shields were not online in midst of a dangerous situation which you are hard press to provide.

The Avenger Captain raising the shield after emerging from the asteroid field is not PROOF of your assertions. He is currently not in the asteroid and no longer in any danger. You know this and have been told this. There is nothing more to talk about. You've been countered and you as of yet have not rebuttal to the evidence of the on screen evidence.

I don't expect you yield willingly to reasonableness I expect you to take your only remaining avenue of action and to ignore further communication.

All your post full of evidence for the last 6 pages and likely beyond where your focus was on Logical Fallacies and insults prove your ego is all that you have served on this forum. PROOF of your EGO as you denounce logic.

Ricery, even if I cared about accreditation I already know that I have had the attention of this forum and many other members whether they agreed with me or not. My pension for providing evidence is both well known and an annoyance to many on the forum. I am happy to be the voice of logic and objectivity, reasonableness and sensibleness. I will not run from you, myself or anyone else when it comes to debate. And if I'm found wrong...I admit it, because logic demands. It's not a game to me.

I will deal with you on the basis of both your errors and your accuracy. And I will smite you for your lack of logic and belligerence for as long as you are here.

If I understand you correctly....No A supernova isn't a chain of explosions. It's the rebound of stellar collapse off the core...one burst that throws out the shell into interstellar space. Kittamaru makes a good point.

Explosion:an act or instance of exploding; a violent expansion ~http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/explosion

The truth is according to the definition the shell of the star continues expanding with little reduction in speed for years...thousands of years and that's how nebulae are formed. If that explosion were over in a second the gas from the explosion would immediately collapse back on the star.

So with all due respect to the person answering that question, they didn't adhere to the definition of explosion. I believe you're referring to the rapid dissipation of the energy of the explosion but as the person in your link says a supernova's energy is not rapidly dissipated...it remains for thousands of years in the ambient gas which is why we can see them form thousands of lightyears away. There is little to stop the explosion such as on Earth where the atmosphere proves to be a buffer.

Other types of explosions that last longer than a second are your Coronal Mass Ejections and Gamma Burst which assuredly last more than just a second. I don't think it was wise of you to define explosions by a time limit. I don't think it accurately represented what you were trying to say.

 

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The explosion itself (what most people consider the explosion) lasts a few seconds (which is, none the less, longer than the under a second ricrery stated).

Thing is, the "explosion" of an explosion isn't what people call the explosion - they look at the aftermath (bright lights/debris/et al) and go "oh, that explosion lasted a while".

Take a nuclear detonation in an atmosphere, or any detonation - the initial explosion is over in seconds (based on the definition of an explosion: from Merriam Webster

intransitive verb
1
: to burst forth with sudden violence or noise from internal energy: as a : to undergo a rapid chemical or nuclear reaction with the production of noise, heat, and violent expansion of gases <dynamite explodes> )

The initial explosion is over in moments. The after effects and secondary "explosions" (expansions of heated elements/gas/et all) takes longer.

Now, in space, you don't have the atmosphere+debris to contend with, and wouldn't get the aftereffects - in fact, in just read this:

So, long story short, you wouldn't really get an explosion in space, at least not as people think of it.

 

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This is one of those things that Hollywood will almost always get wrong, because they want them to look like the audience expects them to look, and have absolutely no interest in teaching physics!

This is a scientist rejecting Hollywood depiction of explosions and that counts for Star Wars and Star Trek...which means there is little literal meaning in these special effects scenes..

...as I told a very obstinate Ricery. Good find Kittamaru.

 

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You mistake me for someone whom cares what you think. You think I hate you? I think your a petulant toddler. I don't hate you, I laugh at you. Big difference

You don't debate, you whine, big difference.

Do you have any links to where exactly I said "fuck you" to physics? Do I consider myself viable? Viable for what?

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I suppose that a career as a burger flipper doesn't require you to use that one brain cell a whole lot but comeon, the least you can do is create a statement that makes sense.

Careful Ricrery, the best thing that can come of you picking a fight is you getting banned again and giving the rest of us a break.

Ricrery, I hate to break it to you, but people in star wars have an intellect comparable to something I pick out from under my nails.

The body armor stormtroopers wear cannot protect them from stone arrows launched by overstuffed teddy bears.

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They have ships that can supposedly destroy a planet yet they still build the largest space station in their universe to destroy a planet which they could already do with a ship less then a percentage point of the size and cost.

Their first death star was destroyed because of a trash can sized hole that allowed two torpedos to enter and somehow perform a ninety degree turn within about a meter while going at what? At least a few dozen times the speed of sound? And how do they solve this problem and the second death star? Well they take away the whole defensive trench and instead put the hole out in the open, OH WAIT, this time it is big enough to fit not just a tie fighter, not just an X-wing, but the Millenium Falcon.

They build gigantic cats and fit them with weaponry comparable to a vehicle a fraction of their size because for some stupid reason a massive metal cat somehow is more effective tactically in any given terrain then a tracked vehicle.

That you can claim that the destructive potential of their weaponry far exceeds the power output of their own nuclear fusion reactor. Which considering it is a civilization supposedly thousands of years more advanced then ours and yet it uses nuclear fusion which is as stupid as the US army being beaten by 3 foot tall teddy bears with bows and arrows.

Hell, screw Trek vs. Wars, I'm betting the marine corps could give the empire an ass whipping they won't ever forget.

Please, explain to me how Wars is so great if it is monumentally stupid and idiotic.

Tell me, if according to your estimates of power output for a single salvo from a capital ship then why didn't the rebels just hyperspace at endor and have a light frigate fire at the shield generator for the second death star? Hell, according to you they should be able to incinerate everything in a few dozen square miles.

But they didn't. Which leads me to believe that all the star wars statistics are utter horsesh*t.

How can yoda supposedly detect the influence of the dark side of the force from light years and light years and light years away from it's effects yet not detect the dark side in Palpatine whom was frequently withing a few feet?

Star wars loses because they are utter and irrevocable idiots.

You use lasers and ion cannons and trek can bring antiproton and tetryon weapons.

I don't care if an antiproton burst is a percentage point as energized as your turbolasers, the fact that it is antiprotons hitting your hull means that your hull literally explodes on contact with it.

Hell, the planet killed could devour the death star easily. It doesn't matter how much plasma you shoot at it, the thing is made out of solid neutronium. How is plasma going to melt neutronium? Oh yeah, it won't.

Ricrery, I would be afraid of wars if I didn't actually know how it was populated by bumbling idiots for generals.

Ricrery, I don't hate you. You know how when you take out the trash and the guys pick it up and return the bin and you realize there is a purple mud colored sticky stain on the bottom of the bin and you realize it must have been from one of the bags when it ripped? That is my opinion of you.

But hey, at least you can take consolation that I don't hate you.

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yup thats what i was saying..the somatic of whether it lasted less or more than one second is moot..my point was the initial explosion would be very short..

 

LoL fed you crack me up, anyhow I saw a few things that I could respond to, though not directed at me, I figured I could respond to them anyhow

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Don't be insulting Meh WOOKIES!

Clone troopers armor does though...I think all those resources for armor got diverted to obnoxious super weapons in episodes 4,5,6..lol

Starships could bombard a planet, and it would be a time consuming thing to do, but planetary shields supposedly would make ship bombardment ineffective, thus the need for the Death Star which had enough power to break through said shield. The only ships I know of were Eclipse class Star Destroyers that could "crack" planetary crusts. And the Sun Crusher which launched torpedoes to cause supernovas, but it supposedly cost more than the death star or something like that.

The second death star was not complete yet, thus the need for moon based shield generator on Endor.

Canon suggest the torpedoes can actually do that, even though the games you experience otherwise, and they say that part of the games is not canon, but if thats so, why bother building starfighters? Why not just drop a few of those super highly manueverable torpedoes and be done with the starfighter problem? Doesn't make sense, so I think the only reason why the torpedoes did that was they somehow went into the exhaust port with the help of another variable.

They can cross muddy terrain that can get tanks stuck (Yes I have seen tanks stuck in mud) however why they wouldn't just use hover vehicles is beyond me...

Yea shame on whoever on that, some of their smaller vehicles, and small rechargers use a form of fusion much different then our concept of it (maybe cold fusion?) but starships use something that hasn't ever really been elaberated much. Though some say Hypermatter, and world destroyers used small artificial black holes for power.

You apparently never heard of General Custer

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(Granted not against teddy bears, but still US army getting handed by bows and arrows.)

*Stormtrooper grabs his helmet and shakes it a little bit*

"I can't see a thing in this helmet"

*Marine in camouflauge sneaks up behind him, grabs head and gives it a quick twist* (SNAP) *Stormtrooper collapses to floor*

(Two Stormtroopers guarding just a few feet away)
"What was that?"
"I don't know...probably just another drill"

Yea I can see that happening.

I can actually answer that. When Luke, Han, Leia, and commandos are in the shuttle trying to sneak by, one of the imperial officers approaches Vader reporting a shuttle wants through, (I believe someone allows it -vader in-fact) They then lower the shield to allow them through. (The shield is actually protecting all of Endor and the second death star -and planetary shield generators can product against orbital bombardment)

I wondered about that myself, thus why I looked it up. And in a lot of the tech manuals, when you compare the numbers to the speeds depicted in movies, yea its utter bull, you see some of the same thing in the Trek stuff too though.

Force users can hide their presence, but this also means they cannot use the force either. This is why I think we never see Palpatine use his powers until finally confronted by Windu.

"Its a Trap!"...lol, don't know if you seen enough Star Wars to get that.

I have tried doing a lot of comparing for both sides on that, and I have found that Turbolasers have similar effects and blast abilities (comparing on what has been seen in movies and shows) to Phaser Canons, and Star Wars Ion weapons having similar effects as Romulan plasma weapons (with chances of disabling ships systems) Will try to elaborate more on in my technology section in the Great Wall of Text.

Totally agree, I don't know why Star Wars fans even bother trying to defend the protective abilities of armor, as while it is thick (sometimes a foot or more in places), it has nowhere the protective ability as this Nuetronium I see mentioned. Once the shields are down, its pretty much swiss cheese. The only thing Star Wars has that comes close is "Cortosis", which is dam near indestructible. Oh and whatever the Sun Crusher is made out of, but thats so ludicrously expensive you might as well be building ships out of solid gold in present day.

As for plasma, canon suggests quantum torpedoes have plasma warheads, which they say isn't wholly effective against neutronium, (supporting your statement) though they say it does affect it a little bit. (thats unless you accept the fact they have some sort of anti-matter zero point energy warhead, which I don't believe is canon, but it is mentioned as much as the plasma warhead idea)

And ironically enough, from what I have been able to to find, the death star's primary weapon is actually one of the few weapons in star wars thats called a laser and actually is some form of laser. (Yea I know...makes so much sense..lol)

This is mostly based on the fact that if it was plasma, the travel speed of the weapon as depicted in the movies would be to close to light, though I don't know of any sources saying star wars actually follows the science of relativity either, so I can't really say for sure :shrug:

And somebody may have done some more hard math somewhere and calculated much differently, as I am by no means an expert physicist.

 

Well, the neutronium thing is funny in itself:

Star Wars Neutronium - Han found a chunk, on a random moon that he could, without aid, stand and breath on. He then PICKED UP said fist sized chunk and crushed it in his hand. This material is alloyed with starship hulls.

Star Trek Neutronium - Only found inside a Neutron Star where the intense pressure and gravity creates this highly unstable material that cannot naturally exist outside the gravity of said neutron star. Only a handful of civilizations can work it, creating such marvels as the Dyson Sphere and the Doomsday Device (and one particularly oddly placed door on a Cardassian prison ship in DS9... yeah... wtfh... I don't even... AUGH damnit Sisko stop pimp-slapping the laws of physics!!!!) which were impervious to phasers and even photon torpedoes. It was suggested that Quantum Torpedoes WOULD have some effect, but even they would have difficulty dealing damage to something made with neutronium armor.

Now, Quantum Torps use a zero-point clean vacuum to extract massive amounts of energy (vacuum energy was a theory a while back) into the explosion. They are far more potent than a Photon Torpedo, even the PhoTorp Mk VIII's (the 200 isoton one IIRC).

The silly thing here is, Star Wars people try to say "lol hur star wars is immune to Trek's weapons due to neutronium hulls hiyup" which is a blatant (and stupid) falsehood since Star Wars neutronium exists outside a neutron star and is light enough to be picked up by a person (where as Star Trek Neutronium would have likely CRUSHED Solo just by him standing near it due to it's density... I mean, we're talking ultra, ultra fucking dense here)

 

That goes to accurately representing the the truth which Ricery tends not to do. If we go by Ricery's need to find a scientific explanation for the unscientific
then these explosions can't be taken for what they are.


If it's not worth being accurate it's not worth debating.

 

So, you've created a working hyperdrive, Particle blaster, Artificial Gravity, and Learning AIs? Thought not.

First of all, the average ewok is the same physical strength of the average himan. Secondly it is shown several times that the arrow were just bouncing off the armor or the stones arrow head catching in nooks and crannies. I would also point out that a modern bullet proof vest with the trauma plate would be little impediment to a recurve bow and a properly napped flint arrow head.

A BDZ is different form planet destruction. in a BDZ a palent is reduced to a lifelles near valuless planet sized rock . Actual planet destruction leaves many lifeless rocks of a the size of small town or smaller.

Also the point of the the Death Star was to destroy worlds even if they have their planetary shields up. A BDZ will not work through such shields.

First: The ONLY way you could figure out the weakpoint was to have a full technical blueprint for the frst Death Star. No blueprint, no weakness.

Second: the Second Death Star was not completed. It's not completed state was used to bait the trap for the Rebellion. That it backfired on Palaptine was his own arrogance.

Walkers were an intimidation weapon. And if you remember the feet of a walker were easily half the size of the M1A1. Thoough I do agree they were much too tall and their center of gravity is way off.

Then again the ONLY military ground vehicle we have seen the Federation has was a glorified FAV dunebuggy.

actually, they never said nuclear fusion. Just fusion. A Matter Antimatter reactor is a fusion reactor.

Modern day marines armed with comparable weapons would likely have some success defending against an invading Stormtrooper force, provided they had the same advantages the Ewoks had. Remember the Stormtroopers were in an unfamiliar terrian that the enemies knew all too well, they did not have air support, and they only had light armor units, one of which was stolen.

A full in force invasion would likely wipe out any modern military. Remember the clone wars, stormtroopers have some of the same equipment available and sometimes it is even improved.

Just becuase the humans are human(including making mistakes) does not a idiotic genre make. And at least people in Star Wars dress better than the pajama wearing federation officers.

Becuase from the diagram you could see the moon based shield generator was covering itself as well as the Death Star. Plus the Death Star was guarded by several Star Destroyers. Something the Rebels were quite aware of.

Actually it does not matter what you believe. Canon facts are canon fact.

Remeber that some Sith were quite adept at hiding their force signatures. Also the Jedi were going through a time when they were not seeing things as clearly as normal.

I just love how some people call an arching plot and drama idiocy. Of course it doesn't matter if SW is occupied by idiots, some of the best people in ST can only aspire to be smart enough to get moved up to SW.

Sure, you use weapon based on theorhetical particles that may well never exist. We'll stick with tried and true particles that get the job done without needing special phase compensators.

Well considering theat SW has both Deflector screens that deflect fast moving coherent beams of particles, and Particle shields that stop ALL particles. Not to mention that an antiproton would only explode if it hit another proton and since they have a positive charge they as likely to strike each other as a kid in Seattle having a snowball fight with a kid in Kalisz Poland.

It's the power level of the weapon that matters. If your weapon cannot overcome my shields it doesn't matter if it is something that turns metal to cream cheese.

Actually, it only takes a 100 megaton explosion to mess with a planet killer weapon. To get that kind of fire power you need either to detonate a Constitution Class Starship or you could use low power proton torpedoes.

Well, you'd have a point if all generals were like RoTJ Palapatine. Unfortunately many in SW are much, much better.

 

They're as strong as the average... himan... hymen??? *blinks*

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Spelling - It's fucking important Scott...

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Blitpppppp!!!lol!rofl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!xd!!lolololol!!!!

 

I think I broke Saquist... 0o

 

Star wars shields are built to protect against plasma based weaponry like the kinds used by turbolasers right?

The idea being that a charged plasma burst can be blocked by having a charged field with extremely high charges that would stop a plasma shot dead in its tracks, right?

That would explain why certain ships and weapons can penetrate most types of shields because they can simply plow their way through. But if it is too powerful then even they will get defeated by the shields.

It also explains how ion cannons work, they are merely specialized weapons meant to try and disable the shields by overpowering their fields.

 

TW Scott some of your defense were really good, such as the AT-AT being as much an intimidation weapons as anything (I had forgotten about that) and is typical of "The Tarkin Initiative" I think.

Some of it I had already responded to though...so you were repeating some of what I had already stated...and several hours after I had posted, unless you didn't refresh when you replied. (Such as the shield generator on Endor)

Though on

Star Trek does have the particle blaster...thats essentially what a phaser is, they obviously have artificial gravity, and Data technically counts as a learning capable AI. Granted learning AI is more common in Star Wars than Star Trek though. One could say the Borg, but they are more of a hive mind organics are forced into.

If they were going to perform a full on force invasion, orbital bombardment of all bases, and naval forces would be the best action before landing any form of ground force.

And Ewoks would just as badly devastate a federation landing party as they would Storm Troopers. Klingons its hard to say, they would have a hard time compensating for the fact that ewoks could easily hide in the terrain and for the fact that they are shorter. (Even modern military has hard time with this -Vietnam War)

Also you have to look at this as the Storm Troopers were expecting all resistance to be in the building, they weren't expecting forces to attack from outside their perimieter. (A major tactical blunder yes, but contributed to their rapid disorganization) And don't get me started on what idiot wouldn't lock the top latch to walker when in battle...(when Chewbacca stole the walker.

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)

However in all fairness, the Storm Troopers, except in the boarding scene at the beggning of A New Hope, have been depicted in the other two movies as idiots. Though the clone troopers are so badass in the first three, makes me wonder what went wrong...

 

quantum, on your clone trooper remark, maybe we can go so far as to say that Jango Fett and thus Boba Fett are some of the few people in star wars that aren't blundering idiots.

 

Don't forgets meh Wookies!

 

true. The only two people in SW who HAVEN'T lost their marbles.

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:bugeye: uh ok. That's actually propaganda. The only reason those poor teenage soldiers had a hard time with the Vietnamese, is because they hid in holes in the ground and were given bullshit info by Reagan and his dumb-ass friends.

 

I don't know about that, Padme did decide to die from all the crazy, and marble losing, so you could say she didn't lose her marbles, she let herself die before that happened.

And Yoda, "he skipped town before the Sh*t went down..."

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He also warned everyone about training Anakin being a bad idea...just no one listened to him.

 

Remember that's EXACTLY what DIDN'T happen in Attack of the Clones and they had every opportunity. An Orbital Bombardment would likely have ended war instantly before it started.

It's one of the reasons that Star Wars ceases to be...a real competitor in the vs debate after the new trilogy, they have all this power and don't even use a fraction of it.