Heterosexuality is unnatural

Now HERE's a funny little conversation from a Christian message board between a person who identifies as gay, and someone who identifies as straight. This person's response is so stereotypical of this "christian" mindset that I couldn't pass it up!


rhellis:
LeTypeFrancais, I would like to ask you some questions: What was your relationship with your father like when you were growing up? What is your mother like? Were you ever molested by a man? Did your father or some other strong male figure affirm your masculinity at any point in your youth?

LeTypeFrancais: My relationship with my dad was always good. Never abused or anything. But I grew closer to my mother since she was the homemaker and my dad worked. As a child, I learned that I couldn't be as atheletic as the other boys because of conditions I was born with. No, I was never molested by an adult.

As for affirming my masculinity, I'm a man in every sense of the word and attracted to masculine men. I'm not effeminate if that is your assumption nor am I attracted to feminine men. I think like most men, I may have feminine qualities such as being well-mannered, groomed well, a taste for creative arts over sports, but I am still a man and act such. I love technological gadgets, video games, etc. like many men. Although gay, you couldn't pay me to dress in drag while many "drag queens" are married men.

rhellis: Okay, that's a common answer and an honest one.

I too prefer the arts to sports, but I'm not gay. I do think that having a creative, flexible mind could make a person more likely to become gay.

Your dad was a working man, and you didn't have a lot of space in his world so you gravitated to your mother's world. You are caught in a loop-- searching for the masculinity that you were denied as a boy and adolescent but paradoxically being driven further from it because of the place where you are searching for it. In many cultures, there are official rituals at which masculinity is bestowed on young men. Apparently masculinity is something we get from our fathers or other male figures. We certainly don't get it from our moms. It is something that is passed from man to man.

If a young man finds himself not being accepted or not excelling in the man's world, he may go the female's world where he may excel-- some of the best hair dressers and flower arrangers are gay men. It's not a hollow stereotype.

The contradiction of being gay but wanting a masculine man (essentially straight) shows what the real problem is. The desire of almost every gay guy I've ever known, by nature, is in fact a straight guy. My best friend from the time I was 15 to 17 was gay. I did not know it at the time. He was pathetic in athletics and such, and although I did love poetry and art stuff, I was still a guy's guy-- rode motorcycles and chopped wood and all that too. He withdrew from everyone around the time I was 17 and moved to another city. Then when I was 23, he came to see me. He was acting awkward, and I knew something heavy was on his mind, but I didn't know what. He didn't tell me, but a few days later I got a letter from him explaining that he was gay and had been for quite some time. He said he had feelings for me, which made me almost physically ill-- don't know how many times he and I were out hiking together and I peed right in front of him without thinking twice. I actually felt violated-- that's probably why this is a hot button issue for me.

So, what you need is to find your place in the man's world, and you can do it. You don't need the sexual love of a man. You need the approval of a man's man. That's what you are searching for. Or at least that's what I think. You identified with your mom, and all you need is some male identity.

Another question (graphic but important): How do you respond to the female body? Does a naked woman do anything at all for you?


LeTypeFrancais: I could tell this is a hot button issue for you because although maybe not to the others, it is obvious to me. When you say "they" as in those people, your slight paranoia that this thread will become a dating service for gay men, etc. It told me that this issue hits someone inside you and I respect that. But if you liked this gentleman as a friend and you knew him in all ways except that he was gay, that shouldn't make you feel violated just because of that one fact you came to know. If he was a pervert or strange before you knew he was gay then I can see the frustration but if he was just a typical guy, it would be the same as if you hung out with a girl and came to know that she had a crush on you. If he sincerely had feelings for you, it wasn't just about sex. He obviously liked qualities in you that went beyond the physical. I wouldn't fret about it. Sometimes when we don't understand something or are afraid of it, we can make it seem bigger than it really is. We often fear what people are thinking of us but if we realized how seldom they did, it wouldn't bother us. The same with that guy. You may have all these graphic images in your head about what he was thinking when most of it might not have ever entered his mind. Gay people are who comfortable and stable people are not predators looking for converts or trying to hold straight men as captives.

As for the naked woman, I can't say I am turned on in the least bit. I think women like Vanessa Williams, Reba McEntire, and Catherine Zeta-Jones are very beautiful women but their physique doesn't turn me on in a sexual way.

The fascinating thing about homosexuality is how incredibly natural it feels to the gay person and how awkward heterosexuality feels to them. I was so inclined by my homosexual nature that I couldn't even fake being straight in high school. The idea of taking a girl to a dance made me cringe because not only does the female physique not attract me but I cannot relate to a woman on an intimate level. But I'm proud of the fact that I never pretended to be straight and deceived women. I couldn't feel happy with myself if I pretended to love a woman on that level when in my heart, it just isn't there. I happen to know a man approaching 40 that attends a Pentecostal Church every week and lives with a woman and their adoptive daughter but there is no sexual relations or intimacy in the marriage. It is a sham marriage because he's gay, she knows it, and they put on airs. I think that is a very sad situation for all people involved.

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Typical?

 

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I've edited the above several times now, so please read the above again.

 

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Religous pressure to be heterosexual is an enormous pressure in itself, but is not one fourth of the pressure that is exerted through manipulating masculinity roles.

 

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the above information is widely available on the net.

 

ALL the so-called Abrahamic religions did indeed come from the east. And most religions from the Orient, as in eastern Asia, appear to have a common thread: heterosexuality is the only normal desire.

Im not an expert on eastern religions, but they all seem to frown on homosexuality, with mostly shoddy reasons for doing so. However, Buddhism in Japan especially was apparently very involved with pederasty as well as with adult male-male sexuality. And samurais also had a tendency for this intimate male bonding.

Correct me if I'm wrong...

 

This may be true. I don't know about disempowered and genderless; sounds awfully extreme. Let's just say it isn't merely masculinity that makes me feel disempowered, but ALL of humanity. I DO feel like an outcast, but not just for sexual/emotional reasons. I could almost live in a monastery like a hermit because the material world has little in it that I value. But that's a different story!

Yeah, maybe people think I'm "queer" (what a great word!) for not fitting in to these stereotypes or reading from this script that everyone else seems to just LOVE, but if need be, I'm not disempowered. I'll walk all over their stupid masculine trophies with impunity, and they can't stop the truth from being spoken. People can play these games, dance this dance and think the whole spins because of it, but even fools recognize the truth when it's spoken plainly. I don't get the chance to say those things very often, but it would be too confrontational anyway.

I've been seeing a counselor lately, and talking about a lot of this stuff. Now, I'm sure it's part of her training to be agreeable and understanding, but when I start talking and deconstructing these myths and fairy tales, there isn't alot that person can say against my ideas because they hold so much truth. People are so used to going along with this because everyone else does, and no one asks questions, but when someone does, it almost startles me how little true resistance there is.

Well, to get back to what you said, I guess yes maybe I have been disempowered. Maybe I AM genderless. But it's not worth sacrificing my heart and the truth for.

 

You may be right, but it is also important to keep in mind that they are really intertwined, and this depends on your country and upbringing as well.

Genesis: God makes man in his image. Woman is made from man, in man's image (one step removed from God). God calls it good.
Most Christians of the conservative and fundamentalist branch say that this validates marriage as being between man and woman only.
All the great prophets and leaders were basically men. Jesus was a man, NOT a woman. The twelve disciples were all MEN, not WOMEN.

The tradition of men being in charge and women being the baggage or property is set firmly. The affirmation of masculinity then follows this example.

Christian groups that try to re-orient a person's sexual desires or at least eliminate same-sex attractions (or SSA, as they sometimes call it, probably to make it sound more like a disorder!) make the most of the Biblical-masculinity symbolism.
In degrading and ridiculing same-sex affection or to quell ideas of gay marriage, they hold up Apostle Paul's comparison of human marriage between husband and wife and Christ's relationship to the Church.

Because of this comparison, they are not at all able to reconcile that any other type of love can or does exist. They become completely blinded to any other alternative.

Using this strange logic, an unhappy marriage (like the "sham" marriage mentioned in the message board conversation I posted) between a man and woman is still infinitely better and fuller than what could ever be achieved by two people of the same gender. I almost felt like posting the rest of the conversation because one of those people was arguing that it may LOOK like a sham, but is it really? Maybe God in His wisdom is working some greater good that just can't be seen yet. I was almost sickened at how it works.

I couldn't get over a Christian pamphlet on homosexuality I saw that was called "Return to Sodom" and the front cover is a close-up of two men holding hands. Ah, yes! That town of men that wanted to gang-rape some strangers. I totally see the resemblance between that and two men that are in love.

That's getting maybe a little off topic...

Religion is a very big part of it, as far I can see. The way masculinity and marriage is portrayed in the Bible (or other religions) has a very powerful reinforcing effect on even people who are only slightly religious. And people will hold up both the secular AND the religious notions of manhood and sexuality, in case one fails then the other will succeed.

 

Hey Buddha!

Let us speak briefly on a related topic. All of the surveys and studies on sexual preference I've seen generally show two to three times as many men prefer their own gender. Why is it so much higher for men than women? I suspect part of it has to do with hormones, but I don't believe hormones are nearly the whole story.

I did see a survey which showed men have a much higher propensity for cheating on spouses/partners. Maybe that's a related factor?


Umm, I asked some questions about the case of "John". A page or so back. I would appreciate it if you could give me some answers, to give me a better overall picture.

 

This was the post with the questions. I revised the one about marriage about, because I forgot he wasn't married at the time it happened!

 

It is really not advisable to explain things about human sexual behaviour away the way scientists usually do, because human sexuality is so heavily controlled and manipulated that it is difficult to determine what is natural and what is artificial without a thorough investigation -- which must go behind what is apparent or claimed by the individual (your attention Duendy!).

The male sex is always more attractive than the female sex --- that is a well known fact. And since the basic drive of male animals, especially mammals is to form bonds (including sexual bonds) with other males, it figures that they will have high levels of sexual need for other men.

The basic drive of most women (except a few heterosexual women --- and heterosexuality in women is caused by a gene, they have determined one such gene which is found in 20% of women) is to reproduce and the basic bond that she shares is with her child. Sexual bonds with women come second, while those with men are reserved in nature only for procreation. Now when the human society puts a ban of same sex relations (or opposite sex relations!) women find it better to cope with it and adjust because no one can snatch their basic bond --- i.e. with their kids.

As for men.......straight men are promiscous vis-a-vis women. They are not very choosey about what women to mate with. But in their relationships with men, they are very very choosey, tend to bond long term, even life-long (as far as nature is concerned.....if things are not manipulated by the society!). Straight men tend to like masculine men and feminine women. The primary sexual drive of straight men is towards men, the secondary towards women.

The true heterosexuals are different. They tend to be very choosey about women but tend to form emotional life-long and monogamous bonds with them. They are promiscous in their relationships with men and are not very choosy. They tend to be attracted to masculine, aggressive and dominant women as well as feminine, submissive men. The primary sexual drive of true heterosexual men is towards women, the secondary towards men.

The true homosexuals, just like the true heterosexuals are promiscous in their relationships with men, but tend to have long lasting relationships with other homosexuals or true heterosexual men (both of which are feminine gendered!). They too like feminine gendered men and masculine gendered women. The only difference between the true heterosexuals and the true homosexuals is that while for the latter the primary sexual interest is in other men, while the secondary sexual interest is in women.

I will respond to those questions that you have asked later, at my leisure.....I'm pressed for time and only want to respond to those I consider very important.

 

Real masculinity never goes against same-sex bonds. It flows from it. What you are talking about is not really masculinity. It's the fake heterosexual brand of masculinity which uses the negative images (but only appearancewise!) of true natural masculinity and inside has negative femininity. It's bogus and hollow! Has no substance.

True masculinity and heterosexuality are mutually exclusive. No matter how much show they put up! I'm already discussing that under Heterosexuality is queer.

Perhaps your social environment and training prevents you from seeing that!

 

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If I have to choose between who is the more dangerous enemy --- religion or science, I'll take science.

The religious lot are at least open about their opposition. You can fight that! And in any case religion does not enjoy the power it once did.

On the other hand, the 'science' guys use all their sophistication to give you lies, and you are just unable to deal with that --- because that is science and science is today's god! You can't fight science. Especially, since it's extremely powerful these days.

 

Men and women have one thing in common. They both like the company of men!
Michael Douglas

 

That stament in itself is utterly condisending, why make this personnal?

You should be very careful with this kind of thing in the future. I can be taken differently, i for one assumed you a racist, and still do. It is quite obvious, in many of your post ( and no i cant be bothered to find them, you can look yourself) that you are indeed, anti west.

Well isnt that just terrible? You know your anger is eating you from the inside.You should learn self control.

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Just in case you didnt know, Michael Douglas is a 'westener'.

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Of course I'm anti-west!

If you guys are gonna ruin this entire planet with your money and technological powers in the name of globalisation, you are not gonna be liked. You go out and destroy other cultures with your concepts that you cannot defend logically --- only because you have money and technology!

 

I'm not against westerners --- not as individuals. Just their culture and their views. But there are lots of sane voices there, They're just not in power.

In any case, 'west' is not a race! And it is not wrong to resent a power that plays havoc with your lifestyle --- without proving theirs to be superior first!

I'm not here just with hollow words or with biases. I'm here with evidences to back what I'm saying!

 

Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. ~Katharine Hepburn

 

Sometimes I wonder if men and women really suit each other. Perhaps they should live next door and just visit now and then. ~Katharine Hepburn

 

More evidence from the animals as well as from traditional societies

There is an ancient practise amongst some parts of Eastern Europe to artifically inseminate the cows.

They need the semen of the best of the bulls to inseminate the cows. But the problem is that bulls are not always ready to have sex with the cows, besides not all bulls fancy that. In fact until they think its time for procreation, the bulls are not even aroused by the cows so that the farmers can take their semen artifically.

So what they do --- and this has been the practise since as far as one can tell --- is to stand up all the bulls in a circle in a manner that each bulls behind is directly in front of the other bulls face.

The bulls get so aroused at this proximity that they immediately get an erection --- and then the farmers take their semen using artificial vagina.

This is a technique which never fails. Unlike bull-cow sex.

It is like 100% sexual arousal rate amongst males and its instant!