Heterosexuality is unnatural

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Buddha1, Jun 11, 2005.

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  1. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Duendy,

    First of all, I did not mean to get personal about you in my post, and it was meant to expose general oppression. But in any case, if it has offended you, I've deleted the post. That's all I can do now! I'm sorry for any harrassment it might has caused you, it was unintentional.

    I respect you for your intelligence, fighter spirit and a deep and emphathetic understanding of this world.

    I will take the advice of RAven and carry on any future discussion on this issue through PMs (I've already sent you one!)

    As far as not opposing my views out of respect, I think you should not hesitate in posting opposite views (as long as you are contributing to the thread, you're welcome!). My mutual respect for you and all other serious and sincere people on this forum will not cease because they oppose me. I hold people like Jaylee, C2O and others in great regard, inspite of their opposition because they are sincere, well meaning people. A constructive opposition only helps both the parties, especially on a discussion forum.

    Having said that let me add that I myself have been hesitating in discussing the issue of homosexuality openly, because I did not want to offend the many 'homosexual' friends I had made on this forum. But I guess I was going to have to take up the issue someday. I do wish we can carry on opposing each other without loosing respect for each other.

    I think your outbursts are basically because of your anger. But in any case I'll clarify the above point you have raised.

    I know that homosexual men oppose me tooth and nail. Perhaps even more than the hardcore heterosexuals. And sooner or later the strong opposition will come -- like it has happened on other forums.

    I did not tell anyone what they should like or not. Dr Lounatic made a claim about straights not himself. It's about larger issues, not individuals.

    My fight is about exposing the truth --- to bring out how things really are behind the strong oppressive facade of heterosexuality (including homosexuality), not how I think things should be --- as you've accused me of.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2005
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  3. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    It is a paradox.

    what is the definiton of 'feminine'?
     
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  5. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Hey Buddha1...Thanks for your senistively put pm....sorry to have gotten angry with you, but avatar stirs up....he enjoys it pooor boy
    but that doesn't mean iwont give you a possible challange.....like you i am aware that some homosexuals tend to feel fr example bisexuals are not being errr striagyht...ie., that the ..man is'really 'Gay'....i say 'no he is really bisexual. but this doesn't mean ALL homosexuals are bisexual'....now. focus on that sentence and tell me your view plese?
     
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  7. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, but can you explain how?


    Extremely relevant question.

    Femininity: I'd say, it is a feeling or sense of being a female, irrespective of your outer sex --- and a feeling of relating with the female, of feeling one with the female, and a need to bond with the female.

    Masculinity: On the opposite hand, Masculinity is a feeling or sense of being a male, irrespective of your outer sex --- and a feeling of relating with the male, of feeling one with the male, and a need to bond with the male.

    Both can be seen as sources of inner energies (albeit of different nature!) that guide and dictate our lives and give us the capabilities to deal with the various aspects of life.

    Both masculinities and femininities occur in humans in different degrees, irrespective of their outer sex.

    Femininity and masculinity are what constitute our gender (and not the so-called 'sexual orientation'). Our gender (or inner sex, more than our outer-sex) decides how we relate with others, who we relate with and how others see us, not the so-called 'sexual orientation'!

    The only natural difference amongst males is in terms of their gender, and not their so-called 'sexual orientation'. Heterosexuality, homosexuality is an artificial way to divide the male population, designed to perpetuate the oppression of men in order to control their sexual behaviour.

    It is unfortunate that the modern west and its science do not recognise femininity and masculinity as being real or biological (it considers it purely a result of environment), although they recognise an artifical human trait of sexual orientation. But gender (masculinity or femininity) is more biological/ natural than social, though social factors do influence, but that's another discussion.

    All ancient (as well as today's traditional societies) divide their male populations in terms of their gender. None has known of any concept even closer to that of 'sexual orientation'. Of course, these societies knew human nature much better than we do now, and if there indeed was such a thing as 'sexual orientation' these societies would have known about it!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2005
  8. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    ......
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2005
  9. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    QUEER BONOBOS!

    Although scientists (including Bagemihl) don't quite see Bonobos as heterosexuals, the male bonobo exhibits a key characteristic of human (real) heterosexuality --- an inability to form emotional/ sexual bonds with other males, even when males have sex with each other.

    However, and this is where same-sex (and same-gender) bonds become extremely important in deciding the superiority or inferiority of a gender --- Bonobo females share the strongest sexual/ emotional bonds with each other. And that is why they are extremely strong as a gender. The male gender/ sex is extremely disempowered and Bonobo males behave like wimps.

    Bonobo males are so much dependent on females for their social status --- just like their human counterparts in heterosexual societies (a man's worth is judged by how well he can service women!). The superior male is the one whose mother holds a strong position in the female heirarchy. Bonobo males are probably dependant upon the females for their emotional needs too, although the bonds are never strong.

    Bonobo males are somehow (and this is where they are unlike other mammals!) incapable of forming strong emotional bonds with other males, although like the human (real) heterosexuals, bonobo males are quite willing to have sex with other males. (I guess the few masculine males who would form strong bonds with each other would be easily marginalised in the bonobo society!). Bonobo male-sex is also at the same time homosexual in character, because it is promiscuous and unattached. And this is another important similarity between heterosexuality and homosexuality. Both are disempowering for men and empowering for the transgendered/ meterosexuals.
    This is what makes the Bonobo male meek, soft and on the positive side non-violent.

    It is really amazing. When food is served to a bonobo group. The males do not dare to come near the food unless and untill the last of the Bonobo females have had their meal. They just sit at a distance and observe.

    The man's position in a heterosexual society is increasingly getting pathetic --- as the (real) heterosexual male decides the behaviour pattern for the rest of the men. The heterosexual society is anti-man and men are increasingly becoming secondary, inferior citizens but for the artificial brouhaha created by the society. (I'll soon discuss the evidences of this). And I can clearly see that we are going the Bonobo way. Women are increasingly becoming masculine, aggressive and are reclaiming their power to bond sexually with women (the heterosexual male encourages and glorifies female-female sex!). One day men are bound to be completely marginalised, unless the real men wake up and take notice NOW.
     
  10. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    Mr. Buddha1,

    I am interested in your theories. I believe them, because I felt that such was true long before I found these posts. But now, having read them, I must say that I sincerely believe what you are saying to be the truth. Speak to me. If you would please.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks a lot,

    It's not only you, every truly straight man instinctively senses this (more so in a non-heterosexual society) --- but there is no way he can talk about it.

    Even after reading this, not many men can break the extreme stigma to speak in my support, so I have not been expecting it. But your post is such a refreshing news. At least there is hope!
     
  12. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

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    More than that, I have heard and felt what "men" consider to be masculinity throughout my growing-up and all I can say is that in my experience, it is very much artificial.
    SPORTS. Two hundred years ago, what we know as American sports did NOT exist. There was no baseball, football, basketball. (maybe crude precursors to them, I'm no sports historian, but they never made the front page of any newspaper)
    Buddha1 is from an unspecified country, but in America, what I'm describing is true for the most part...
    THESE DAYS, it's used to measure how much of a man you are. People who have their lives invested in this may not see it this way (probably don't WANT to see it this way), but in MY growing up, if you didn't care about sports and/or weren't very good at it, you were considered lesser. You were talked down to. That is not just my opinion or any kind of joke!
    And I know for a fact that this is considered to be a part of heterosexuality, at least in America. If you're not interested in sports, then you at least have to be interested in women. And make it VISIBLY known. If both of those things are missing (interest in sports and/or interest in women) you're automatically called a queer. I only say this as a person who grew up not being interested in either. If they say that the power structure doesn't revolve around this, they either didn't grow up going to a normal school, or they're lying.
    Like I say, in modern America, sports, more than anything, defines what a man is. I really don't know anyone who hasn't at least tried to fit in with that culture. Sports defines a man where I'm from. If you're not into some type of sport, then the burden is on YOU to explain/prove yourself. You have to conform to some kind of masculine stereotype. There is no exception.

    DID YOU READ WHAT I JUST SAID ABOVE?????
    Either you're WAY into sports, or you at least talk the hell out of fucking some little bitch. Other than that, your masculinity is questioned. And this really makes a lot of people squirm. They have to prove themselves.
    Even people who claim to be separate from those roles usually conform to some, if not most of them. (maybe that's what makes them so sure of themselves: they've already won their "trophy" so they can look back on all of it with a little bit of skepticism) The only thing that separates them from the rest of the DOGS (and I mean DOGS in the most sincere sense of the word, so make the most it!) is that they won't hold it over your head if you don't conform. They'll tell you that it's okay, even though they consciously or unconsciously continue to uphold those rather artificial standards.
    I say all of this VERY SINCERELY as a person who has grown up being completely different from what is normally considered manly.
    I have seen people struggling to hold to these societal contrivances even though they really appeared to be faking it (and this wasn't just MY observance, but those around me). I have long believed that masculinity, especially for certain persons, was purely SHOW, POMP, FLOURISH... nothing else. I was even attracted to one of these people.
    I could tell that he liked me (we were both guys, and still are, HAHA), but I could also see that these false requirements for being a "man" required him to pretend that I really didn't mean all that much to him, even though I that he liked me above and beyond what would ordinarily be expected of a "man". It was as if there was some invisible eye that was watching every action of his and determining what was masculine or not, and he was performing, as it were, for that unseen eye.
    I KNEW without a doubt it was a lie. But he played along with it. I wasn't the only person that noticed. Other people commented about the "show" he was putting on.
    I really wonder what ever happened to him. I cared about him, more than I've ever cared about anyone and probably more than I SHOULD have cared about him, because now I see that my attentions and my cares were wasted on someone who cared more about being what they THOUGHT they should be than what they actually were. And I mean that. I've never been both physically and emotionally attracted to anybody like that, so it made a very big impression on me.
    That real-life example from my own life, as well as a few others that came close to being that, taught me alot about how fake "straightness" and "masculinity" could really be.
    I find it very revealing that people that are identified as homophobes (people who act like they're allergic to homosexuality) are actually very possibly hiding their own homosexual attractions (according to a recent study).
    I don't believe, no matter what anyone reading this thread has deduced, that every man has these hidden feelings for other guys. I can't and I won't ever say such things. I think there is a certain percentage of guys that, despite them calling themselves "straight", and despite the false expectations of modern society defining them as such, they are definitely not all that straight.
    All I can say with certainty is that masculinity and the so-called heterosexuality that goes along with it is NOT as strong and bullet-proof as it claims to be. I've met people that claimed to be "straight" but their actions and words spoke otherwise. And like Buddha1, I've learned NEVER to take what a man says about his sexuality literally, because there's so many exceptions, and alot of things won't be spoken of with all honesty because everything they've worked for to establish their masculinity is at stake.

    Having said that, WHAT does Buddha1 have to say about homosexuality??? I would like to hear it. I've heard him say that he really gets into a big argument with so-called homosexuals. And what is this argument? I've already agreed that "masculinity" and heterosexuality, especially as it is viewed in America, is rather scripted and best avoided, if one has their own mind about such things, and many people apparently don't.
    So what of my attraction to my own gender? Are you going to pick away at me now? I've acknowledged most things you've layed out, and I am truly interested in what you've had to say, because until this time, I've only seen these things mentioned in passing. And usually from a feminist standpoint. Most men won't call modern masculinity feeble. Even though that's really what it is.
    Well? How are you going to denigrate me? Or are you? If your goal is to push some kind of bisexuality on people, I can tell you that I DO, from time to time, find females somewhat attractive, but that is BENEATH ME.
    What is heterosexuality, and why should I care to be a part of it? Does humanity need more of them?!?!? I VOMIT at that very prospect! There's more than enough of them, and some of them are faking it. And yet, MORE children are being born. After all, isn't that what straight people NATURALLY do? Why does the world need more children? I truly feel sorry for all the children who don't even have decent parents these days. And people that consider themselves decent parents (and procreating heterosexuals nonetheless) ARE NOT adopting or helping these children in any way.
    Religious conservatives and fundamentalists can go on and on about how evil and hellbound gay people are, but the 30 million or so children that starve to death each year are NOT being caused by homosexuals. And ALL homosexuals were indeed born of a heterosexual coupling. So if they hate us an think themselves so superior because of their "orientation", then they are gravely mistaken.
    Again, I must say that I've enjoyed Buddha1's rant, and that I agree where most people would either disagree or not know what to say.
    However, what is this that you have to say about people like me who will not have anything to do with this false power structure? Am I somehow WRONG? Do I have to yet conform to someone else's ideals on how I should live?
    I consider NO MAN worthy to tell me what I should do. I never asked to come into this world. I was brought here by heterosexuals who were doing what "every heterosexual couple" is supposed to do. When people try to confront me with society's preconceptions of what a person (especially man)is supposed to do, my arguments are simple. To the point. And people don't argue with me after I make my point, because their arguments always come from these false expectations of what a man/woman is supposed to do/be. And I simply point out what little logic/meaning there is in these arguments, and I usually don't hear them again. Because people can't come up with reasonable arguments against them.
    That is the truth. So if there's something that Buddha1 thinks I should be doing (better?), I'd really like to hear what it is. Because I don't consider myself a dog, or an easy mark. I don't capitulate easy.

    That's all I have to say for now. Beat me down if ye will.

    Giovanni

    let me qualify one thing that I've said. When speaking about sports, it seems to make the most impact between grades 7 - 10. This seems to be when it matters most, although the pressures start before that. Once I reached 12th grade (a senior) it didn't matter. But it does very much matter when a person is younger, and may very well shape what they're destined to become later in life.
    Whatever...
     
  13. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Evidence from the modern west
    Here's a report that proves my point that Heterosexuality empowers women but disempowers men, and we are going the bonobo way (while men's power to bond with other men is snatched, women are empowered to bond with other women):

    Bisexualtiy amongst young women rising

    More women --- particularly those in their 20s --- are experimenting with bisexuality or at least feel more comfortable reporting same-sex encounters*, according to a new report from the Centres for Disease Control.

    The survey, released on Thursday by the CDC's National Centre for Health Statistics, found that 11.5 percent of women, ages 18 to 44, said they've had at least one sexual experience with another woman in their lifetimes, compared with about 4 percent of women, ages 18 to 59, who said the same in a comparable survey a decade earlier.

    For women in their late teens and twenties, the percentage rose to 14 percent in the more recent survey. About 6 percent of men in their teens and 20s said they'd had at least one same-sex encounter.

    It wouldn't surprise Kat Fowler, a 27 year old art student who dates both woemn and men, if men were less likely to talk about their experiences. "There's a certain higher level of discrimination (for men). It's a lot easier for women to have these kinds of experiences and be open about it because it's more accepted" said Fowler, who attends the University of Florida.

    When it comes to women and same-sex relationships, experts say it would be worth studying why young women seek such relationships, and whetehr they may be trying to avoid diseases more commonly spread through sex with men. (My comments: note how the experts, like good servants of the heterosexual ideology, try to explain away same-sex bonds --- they can't admit that women have always wanted to do that, its only that they feel freer to try that now!).

    But some experts say it's even more likely that many college students simply see experimentation as a rite of passage. (My comments: The problem is heterosexuals and homosexuals, though they are a minority hold power and speak as the spokesperson of the heterosexual society --- they see the world as they are, so for the life of it cannot understand why straight people would seek same-sex relationships! --- the media too gives them prominence, so does the institution of science.) "It's very safe in the academic community; no one thinks anything of it," said Elayne Rapping, a professor of American studies at the University of Buffalo who has written about sexuality.

    The trend among College women has prompted some sexual behaviour experts to light-heartedly refer to the term "LUG" (My comments: The west! it can't breathe without sexual identities; by the way you have similar identities amongst men: 'exploring', 'gay-friendly', and what not!) or "Lesbians until graduation", said Craig Kinsley, a neuroscientist at the University of Richmond who studies the biology of sexual orientation and gender (It would be too much to expect them to study the correlation between heterosexuality and femininity (lower levels of masculinity) in males).


    *Note that west too has this concept of hiding same-sex feelings and encounters (Jaylee, are you listening!)

    The above study is yet another attempt by the heterosexual society to promote same-sex behaviour amongst straight women. Note that it doesn't talk about same-sex desires as being limited to 'gay' women. But when they talk about guys, they talk of those having same-sex desires as 'gay', thus clearly drawing the line for straight men. …..Talk about psychological pressures to make men heterosexual.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  14. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    But then homosexuality would be even more queer than heterosexuality.
     
  15. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Homosexuality is a western term, and in the way it is used, is certainly misleading. I make a distinction between sexual desire of a straight male for another and between homosexuality --- which is in real sense the sexual desire of a feminine male for a male (even though the west merges the two in order to isolate and stigmatise straight male sexual need for other men). According to this latter definition, yes homosexuality is as queer as heterosexuality (whether it is more can be found out through discussion!)

    That, plus the fact that we are not discussing 'homosexuality' here (homosexuality is in any case certified to be queer!) or even sexual/ emotional bonds between men, But I'd like to hear you out, to know your views. So please tell me how!

    And, yes, I'm still curious how 'successful homosexuality is a paradox'!
     
  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Because it shouldn't exist.
     
  17. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Just see how cunning the heterosexual ideology is, it forces masculine gendered and feminine gendered men together into a queer 'homosexual' definition, but keeps transexual and transgendered males out of its 'straight' = 'heterosexual' definition, in order to be able to portray heterosexuality as masculine -- in order to keep up the pressure on masculine/ straight men.
     
  18. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    That gives such a lot of new perspective to the whole issue. And very valuable because it comes from the west and tells us what actually goes on behind the heterosexual masks of power. Till now we had only seen the masks of power speaking not the real people.

    I need some time to mull over this and make a response, comment, but kudos for taking the courage to share them!
     
  19. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Isn't there a difference between what should or should not be (according to your values and biases which you may like to 'misname' as science!) and what clearly is......!

    That's not a very scientific explanation, let's put your words together again.

    "There is no evidence of successful homosexuality in nature.....

    because it is a paradox.....

    because it shouldn't exist."

    See my point!

    Perhaps you just made the statement in a haste, not really thinking or meaning it, in that case we will forget about it, otherwise, please take some time (and words!) to explain.
     
  20. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Pressure to make men heterosexual

    A strong psychological pressure is generated on straight men by making it out that same-sex feelings are not a typical male feeling. Several inbuilt mechanisms in the heterosexual society make sure that this myth is not broken. Misleading Sexual identities institutionalise this myth and make it difficult to see things as they are.
     
  21. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Bhudda1 : Perhaps you could answer me this ...

    Why do you think there is pressure on straight men to be masculine, to not pursue sexual relationships with men? Could it not be a force for good that men are encouraged to be men? Might it not just be natures way of ensuring procreation and survival of the species? Why are you challenging nature?

    peace

    c20
     
  22. Buddha1 Registered Senior Member

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    Proof of General all-pervading pressure through subtle and disguised hostilities

    The following is an example of how the social hostility generated by the society pressurises people and makes them appear averse to same-sex feelings --- thus fuelling the 'heterosexual majority" image. This is a female instance, but the phenomena is intensified a thousand times, because (social) manhood means much more to straight men than to women or the real homosexuals and real heterosexuals --- men often take to forceful denying, verbal abuse and even violence to hide their fears of being found out as even harbouring these feelings:

    Newpaper report:

    Portia De Rossi refused to do a gay sex scene with Angelina Joli in Gia because she feared she'd have to 'come out' as a lesbian. The star, who reportedly hated being part of Ally McBeal when the show went gay, was intent on hiding her lesbain tendencies. "I would't even drive down Santa Monica Boulevard (gay capital of Los Angeles) in fear that someone would look and think I was gay. Contact music quoted her as telling gay magazine "The Advocate".

    (This is a case from your society Jaylee, and though it is one case it clearly points to an immense social pressure and hostility created --- which is extremely subtle and works indirectly, while outwardly it accepts same-sex feelings in those who take on the stigmatised 'gay' label)
     
  23. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    There is no one showing any hostility in this example, rather her fear is projecting her own insecurities onto the mysterious 'someone'. She is quite clearly her own worst enemy in this example. I think people are incredibly accepting of the changing face of societies sexuality. We still reserve the right to make our own choices and I am afraid gay people are going to have to accept that straight people find the idea of same sex relationships pretty repulsive, that does not mean that we find the person repulsive or that we are going to grab our torches and pitchforks and hunt them down.
    Shouldn't you be celebrating societies increasing acceptance of different ways of living rather than keep dragging up stereotypes of masculinity?

    peace

    c20
     
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