Hmmm. Is holding someone against their will and questioning them about stuff they don't want to talk about a form of torture as well? Because if so, the American justice system has some serious 'splaining to do.
So now a wet blanket has become a form of terrorism. Crumbling buildings and massive civilian casualties vs. chilly discomfort. Potato, potahto.
That's just a violation of due process (illegal), unless there is no form of legal recourse to defend your innocence, then it's indefinate detention without trial (illegal). Note: American citizens have been held at Gitmo as well. Are you next?
I'm Canadian, but there are Commonwealth subjects in Gitmo so my nationality is really moot. I'm afraid that I haven't had time to learn how to craft roadside explosives since 911, and my membership application to join Al-Qaeda was rejected outright on the premise that I hate them and want to see them all dead, which is against their membership policy. So I don't think I'll be spending time in Gitmo. Sorry. Here, I'll give you some more ammunition. The soldiers that arrested these guys didn't read them their Miranda rights either. True, the beloved Geneva Conventions don't call for Miranda rights, but they don't call for any of the other protections specific to the US Constitution that you're calling for either. You can use the Miranda thing in all your future arguments. No charge.
"So I don't think I'll be spending time in Gitmo. Sorry." That's what you think. Several people have already been released, which proves that not everyone there is automatically guilty. Maybe you'll never end up there and just be sent to another country on a gulfstream for torture...
Hold on a second. Isn't it the right-wing nutjobs that I support who run Gitmo? What do they profit by throwing one of their most dedicated propagandists in the clink? What kind of message does that send to the sheeple? Hmm. Maybe it's a reverse psychology ploy! That Rove guy is pretty clever. I wouldn't put it past him.
What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter. To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it -- please try to believe me -- unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted.' Believe me this is true. Each act, each occasion is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join you in resisting somehow. Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we did nothing) . . . You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair. [A German professor describing the coming of fascism. From They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1939-1945 by Milton Mayer, a stunning and chilling account of ordinary people in extraordinary times.]
spidergoat: You appear to be making one of those nutty Bush=Hitler pronouncements that rely on the reader to read something about the Nazis and then realize, "Hey, wait a minute, this sounds just like BUSH!" And then you sit back smugly and go, "See, Bush IS Hitler." Except these stories always make me think of the Liberal Party of Canada. Maybe, maybe, the Nazis are EVERYWHERE!
You can't justify something just because 'it could be worse'. of course you can. taking away a blanket at night from a guy picked up with an AK-16 from Afghanistan is justified, while stabbing him in the eye or drilling a hole in his leg is not. (unless, like i said, he has info about an imminent nuke bomb going off) Conventional torture? yes - the conventional meaning of torture. taking away a blanket or tossing a Qur'an in the toilet is not torture. none of these is a nice thing to do, but none of these is torture. Would you honestly enjoy those things happening you to? No blanket at night? of course not. but then again, i'm not a drooling mass-murderer-in-waiting You are just the type of America-is-right- and-if-you-don't- think-so-you-deserve-to-die types. no man. i have lots of beefs with the USofA What would you, honestly, say if you heard these things were happening to Americans? if Americans were planning to fly buildings into Saudi Arabia, and they were caught by the Saudi interrogation unit, i'd be kissing Abdullah's feet if all he did was take away their blankets, flushed a bible down the toilet (that actually did NOT happen at Guantanamo), let in a few belly dancers to "demoralize" the prisoners, deprive the prisoners of sleep, and make them sit in uncomfortable positions. though in a Saudi interrogation facility i suspect they'd literally torture you
If you can't see that the comparison is more compelling than nutty, then this statement isn't for you, it's for smarter people. The whole point is not that Bush is Hitler now, but that the gradual erosion of your rights is the modus operandi of a fascist regime, and not necessarily one that murders 6 million people. This is why democrats complain about Bush- because our rights are a damn serious thing, not that we want to be right or some stupid shit like that.
Good heavens! A droplet of pee has alit upon my holy book! Oh, the humanity! And now the kaffir guard has refused to acknowledge his abject filthiness by not wearing fresh gloves to hand me a new Koran! Oh Allah! When will these torments cease? A female guard! In my cell block! Meeting my gaze without lowering her eyes! The WHORE! What kind of monsters are these Americans?
Okay. When Bush abolishes elections, and an ACTUAL FACIST REGIME is installed in Washington, I'll be sure to reread this quote. I'm sure it'll be full of insight into the American condition when the appropriate conditions are met in reality.
This goes beyond Koran abuse, asshole, they send Canadian citizens to Syria for torture. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/11/5/94852/0804 And we send people to Uzebekestan to be boiled alive. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Real fucking funny.
Hey pal, I didn't say torture was funny. Treating the scum of the earth as if their petty prejudices are a legitimate human rights concern is funny, because it's fucking sad. The Syrian-Canadian (dual citizen) you speak of was deported from the States to Syria because he was a suspicious character at a time when suspicious characters were a genuine danger, and because Syria was where he was born. He was not some random Canadian citizen sent to Syria specifically for torture at the US behest. The Canadian government knew about the deportation within days of him arriving in Syria. Canadian aid workers specializing in torture cases met with him in jail and were convinced he was being tortured and that the Canadian embassy needed to step in. The Canadian embassador met with Syrian officials. On his way into the meeting he made a comment to the effect that he was going to clear up these torture allegations, which he was certain couldn't be true. His meeting with Syrian officials naturally proved his hypothesis. It was not necessary for him to meet with Arar (the deportee) to assess the situation. So the Canadian government sat on their hands for a year while Arar was being tortured. If you want to blame a Western government for Arar's treatment, try blaming Canada. Arar does. The fellow in the picture looks to be in rough shape. I don't condone his treatment, if he was in fact tortured. If the Americans sent him to Uzebekestan knowing he'd end up like this they need to be held to account. Don't sit on your high horse and accuse me of being amused by real, dictionary defined torture. And get your facts straight. The CBC is all over the Arar thing almost every day.
spidergoat, don't post pics like that please. they're disgusting and disrespecting the dead man. besides, he has nothing to do with America. he is an Uzbek citizen that was tortured by the authorities for "anti regime" activities. his case was discussed here about a year ago when his mother was talking about it in the media. what he experienced is what real torture is. that's the kind of stuff the Guantanamo Sweethearts will never see as long as they're incarcerated in an American-run jail. though rest assured, if they had a chance they'd do this to an American in a second... or behead him.
Excuse me. You cons encourage a kind of pissing contest about whose crimes are worse, and it's not productive. Two wrongs don't make a right. Anyway, several people in Guantanamo have been released, and told the press that Afghanistani warlords sold them to the US when they refused to fight the US. These are muslims that might possibly be on our side, and we are treating them worse than a convicted criminal in American jails, and they have never had a trial, or the ability to defend themselves. Some of the prisoners are Americans, who deserve protection under American law. Bush is trying to circumvent American laws by putting people in Guantanimo, and it's not right.
Yeah, we should always beilieve whatever ex-prisoners say ...especially if it's something bad about the USA! Politicians might lie, but NEVER would prisoners lie. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Baron Max
So, the US government can get away with anything, because the prisoners, who are the only witnesses, can't be trusted, even though we are letting them go? Absolute power leads to... what? Nothing in particular?
Spidergoat, that's a great quote. I'm gonna keep that one. Makes you think... A drooling mass murderer? For most of the guys, their biggest crime is trying to defend themselves against the country invading their country (aka us). Yes, their are the extremists that are attacking the US, and I do definetly agree that they should be held. Yes, but consider what we are doing over there. To them, WE ARE the terrorists. We are destroying their homes, bombing them, killing their citizens who, in their opinions, are just trying to protect themselves and their families from 'terrorists'. And yet, if we heard about these things being done to American soldiers, everyone would be totally up in arms about it.
