Iraqinot (I wreckin' nought). Stop draqon my thread around. Zak: "sorry to interrupt your very entertaining and informative debate with Hype but are you sure the above is true???" The Baron is certainly wrong; I'm certain that's one thing we can be sure of. The bloody Baron and I are both certain. Actually, he might be more certain than I... So if that's any part of your contest here, a smart salute and a friendly wingover, going just over yer head, with a full head of steam. Savor this distracting victory, while I carve a hard turn back onto your big fat tail. Don't worry, I'm not shooting at the Baron- I'll just trim his feathers a little. Baron Max: “...just biased websites.... ” Hype, parading out a bunch of biased wedsites as if they were valid evidence in a court of law…” This is no court. Be serious. ”you're so biased that talking to you is like beating ones head against a brick wall.“ If my grain all ran the same way, I’d just split. Picture a mortar been launched in your general direction, landing upon your own house. Would you consider this rude? I will allow you to respond to this question, while moving on. ”If I was harboring a murderer in my home, feeding him, housing him, caring for him, ...., then I would expect to be treated like the criminal I was being. You, on the other hand, seem to call those people "innocent". Bullshit!” That’s not a response to my half of the conversation. How responsive do you consider yourself, Baron Max? 60% of Fallujah, including most residences of the town were destroyed, although the vast majority of the inhabitants did not present a threat to the people of the USA, or even harbor hatred for USAmericans (especially before they got to know how Blackwater agents behave). Yet these civilians were targeted, many killed, many more wounded, and still more rendered homeless and jobless. ”Fallujah and it's residents were harboring vicious criminals” No, that is untrue. Most residents of Fallujah harbored no-one. ”They'd go out at night, bomb some innocent people, then sneak back to their safe haven, Fallujah. And worse, they even admitted it on some of their idiotic videos!!” No Baron, there were not, and have never been 800 Fallujans blowing shit up and posting it on Youtube or al-Jazeerat. OK some on Fox. ”The people of Fallujah were NOT innocent. They willingly harbored vicuous criminals and killer and murderers.” Viscous, vicious, and vicarious criminals are everywhere. There could be a criminal staying at your neighbors’ houses. May we call in an airstrike? Give us good co-ordinates, and we’ll put you in the middle of the donut. No? Then you’d be dough. Doh! Y’know what? Rather than re-hash all that you haven’t responded to in my own posts, along with everything that you have offered except direct and honest response, I’ll keep this short if not so sweet: Please review this thread. There seems to be much that has escaped your participatory attention. I would suggest taking it from the top. Please don’t leave out any challenges just because they weren’t from me: Why not start with that, and then respond to the challenges you have been skirting around with such certainty (and admirable maneuverability). :cheers:
Dude trust me you don't want to get into this with draq. His understanding of russian and eastern european history isn't very good.
Even if that delusion of yours were true the russians still wouldn't be justified in killing them. They were POLISH CITIZENS.
The 90% of the people of Fallujah willingly and cheerfully harbored the extremists and terrorist and insurgents that bombed and killed people all over Iraq. Show me proof that the innocent civilians, even the ones who willingly stayed behind, were intentionally targeted by the US Marines and Army. Well, Hype, it is true. You just don't want to believe it, that's all. It's just as I've been saying all along, Hype; Idealism is it's own best defense. In order to defend your idealism, you just call up more idealisms. And in many, if not most, of your answers, you've simple dreamed up a nice little scenario as an "answer". The USA and it's allies could never have won World War II without the bombing and shelling of the cities in which the Germans were hold up. It's a fact, plain and simple, yet you'll express some idealism as an answer ...like: "Well, I'd talk to the German commander and convince him to surrender." ...LOL! Yep, idealism is it's own best, and sometimes only, defense. War is hell, Hype, so perhaps you should stay out of it, and leave the fighting to those who have the will and the guts to win. Baron Max
I want the truth. It's clear that you would carry out, or even order a "Code Red" (so to speak)- That is, you advocate (in your own frilly way) targeting civilians. Let's stop beating around Bush and get down to it: Why? Zak's question poses the question well: "what is the greater good of bombing afghanistan and iraq???" We the jury would like a straight answer, please.
Some were, some weren't. The shells, rockets, bombs, and bullets, did not distinguish individual guilt. How strange. Why would you compare Iraqis in their own towns with German invaders of other countries? Are you comparing the US soldiers in Iraq with the French partisans in France? The German invaders, btw, occasionally employed collective punishment - killing wholesale residents of a town in punishment for the town's harboring of terrorists, say. That is of course a direct violation of the Geneva accords now, and was a war crime then. At the Nuremburg trials, some of the Germans who did that were convicted, sentenced, and hung. Decent people do not allow that kind of behavior, if they can do anything about it. The punishment was hanging, in the good old days - WWII and the like.
Hype, you can't handle the truth! Never once, in all of the things I've said on this thread, have I advocated "targeting" innocent civilians ...and by "targeting", I mean specifically intending to kill them as opposed to being acceptable collateral damage. In exactly the same manner as we liberated North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Belgium in World War II. We're liberating the Iraqis and the Afghanis of the tyrannical oppression of the dictatorial Muslim extremists and terrorists. In the same way we liberated Europe of the tyrannical oppression of Hitler's Nazis. Even with all of the collateral damage of Europe during the war, the French and the Belgians cheered our assistance for liberating them and driving out the Germans. We left behind many innocent people killed and lots of destruction of property, all of it deemed collateral damage. The people of France and Begium and others understood what had to be done and accepted it as necessary. The French and Belgian people practically worshipped us for our assistance, then set about to rebuild their country and go back to the task of living free, peaceful and prosperous lives. If we had approached Iraq and Afghanistan in the exact same manner, the wars would have been over by now and the people of those nations would be rebuilding their towns and cities, and rebuilding their lives free from the tyrannical oppressors. As it is, our pussy-footing around and trying to be nice guys, we've been there for a hundred years or so and we're still not finished. The war with Hitler, spread all over Europe and North Africa only took less than 3 years! See? Something is bad wrong ...we didn't learn from history, and we're suffering for it. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan should have been over in less than a year. Baron Max
What's the matter, Hype, you're usually so wordy in your silly-assed, overly-liberal, highly-idealistic responses? Remember, all you have to do is throw out some other idealistic dreamworld response, and you're all done. You could have said something like: Well, that was then, but we've outgrown such childish warlike behavior. See? Just another silly idealism would have "solved" it all. Try it, Hype, ....dream up some idealism as a response. Baron Max
You really are comparing Iraqis fighting in Iraq, with Germans fighting in other people's countries. We liberated the French from the Germans. It was the Germans who claimed to be liberating France from the French.
And we kicked the shit out of the Germans on their own soil, we took Germany from the Germans, lock stock and Barrel of Sauerkraut, and made it into a acceptable image of our choosing. We did it in 4 years, by absolute war, something we haven't done since, in any of our endeavors, and we have screwed them up till now. Now lets see if Obama can change his spots. Obama didn't impress Osama, the war is still on, and Obama hasn't impressed me. I have been alive long enough for 12 presidents to be elected, and have the awareness to personnel judge 10 of them, and Obama doesn't impress me at all, nothing new in him, just SOSDD. Same Old Shit Different Democrat
Well, how can you not make that comparison? We're liberating the peaceful, innocent Iraqis from the militant, extremist, terrorist Iraqis who want to control all the peaceful, innocent Iraqis. And that makes a difference ......how? Baron Max
Barren Mags: "And that makes a difference ......how?" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Still finding it difficult to actually argue/discuss anything with me, huh, Hype? I'm just too much for you? Can't figure out any way around what I've brought up? So, .....instead of having anything useful to say, you post a cute little picture? ...LOL! Or is it that you just like to post "lectures" without anyone questioning anything you've said ....is that it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Baron Max
No, Hype, you're not singing, you're just preaching your own brand of extremism. You're not much different from all the other extremists in the world ...your target is just a little different, that's all. Baron Max
That's not how we handled even our section of Germany, let alone how we handled, say, East Berlin. It distinguishes people living in their own homes and managing their own affairs from foreigners who invade and impose and manage other people's affairs. Don't you think you should find some way of telling these two kinds of Iraqis apart, first? Just so that you don't end up like the Germans, trying to liberate France from the French. Unless you don't mind playing the German role - - -
Are you saying that the French people were okay with the Nazis controlling their lives? ...and that the USA and the allies fucked up by driving them out? Easy! The ones carrying the AK-47s and explosive devices are the bad guys. Ditto for the ones hiding weapons and explosives in their homes. Baron Max
No. You appear to be, when you compare them with Iraqis. Unless you actually meant to compare the US with the Nazis, alwasy a possibility I suppose. No matter which side they're on - interesting approach. So you agree we should be separating those Iraqis out from the others, and liberating the others from them ? In contrast to what we did to, say, Falluja - .
