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are scientists doing the backstroke now on global warming?
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cardiovascular_tech
behind you with a knife (183 posts)
Old 12-18-04, 11:36 PM
 #1
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Scientists hope new evidence of an ancient rise in sea level from a fresh water flood will tell them how global warming can lead to global cooling.

A global cooling event was caused by global warming? Sounds strange. But that is exactly what scientists say happened.

The Earth was emerging from an ice age 8,200 years ago. Seas were warming and life was heating up. Then quite abruptly and for a relatively short period of time -- about 100 years -- the entire globe chilled down again, by almost 10.8 degrees Fahrenheit (6 Centigrade).

One widely held theory for the chill was the sudden release of a substantial amount of fresh water into the northern Atlantic.

A lake twice the size of the Caspian Sea broke through an ice sheet that contained it over current day Minnesota and Canada, the evidence shows. It poured its fresh water into the salty Atlantic and changed the density of the ocean water.

The oceans work on a sort of conveyor belt method to circulate cold and warm waters, thereby helping control cold, moderate, and warm areas of the globe. (Earth's climate is only partly affected by land temperatures and sunlight. Oceans, which store vast amounts of energy and are slow to warm up and cool down, contribute greatly to climate.)

But what happens if that conveyor belt stops or slows down?

Cold, fresh water sinks, and warm salty water rises. The influx of fresh water into the Hudson Bay from Lake Agassiz provided a barrier against the warm, salty water struggling to move north on the conveyor belt. This effectively shut down the circulation of warm water in the Northern Atlantic.

With warm waters unable to move as far north the world became cooler. The amount of water Lake Agassiz dumped into the ocean is equivalent to how much the seas rose. Knowing these amounts will tell scientists how much fresh water could create this type of climate change nowadays, were a bunch of it to suddenly find its way into the ocean.


The oceans were able to find their balance relatively quickly in that ancient event, and the effects wore off in about a century, but a century of that kind of change today would create widespread havoc.

"There is nothing like Lake Agassiz today, but there are things that could have a comparable effect," said Torbjorn E. Tornqvist, an geologist at the University of Illinois at Chicago. "Places like the Greenland ice sheet are very sensitive to warming and a lot of fresh water could enter the northern oceans and mess up circulation."

Scenarios such as this are exactly why Törnqvist says investigations into past climate are vital to understanding current and future climate.

"What if patterns of precipitation change from global warming? Having more precipitation in one place than in another could freshen ocean waters and play a role in climate cooling," Tornqvist told LiveScience.

The research of Tornqvist and his students centered on peat deposits in the Gulf of Mexico, where they found samples that were 8,200 years old.

Tornqvist explained that peat is formed between sea level and high tide, and since there is very little influence from tides in the Gulf of Mexico, it is the perfect place to study changes in sea level accurately. The results of the research, which are detailed in the Dec. 11 online version of Geophysical Research Letters, showed a rise in sea level of less than about 4 feet (1.2 meters).

The rise might be even less, according to Tornqvist, and determining exactly how much less will provide a better picture of how fresh water influx affects the ocean conveyor belt and global climate.

With this new data, and previous evidence from ice cores in Greenland that also showed a rise in sea level at the same time, scientists hope they can narrow down how much the seas rose. Then they can calculate how much water flowed into the ocean.

Understanding these past climate changes will give scientists a better sense of what could happen today if similar events occurred.

"Climatologists urgently need this type of information to run their climate models in order to understand the conditions that can produce such an abrupt climate change," Tornqvist said.


interesting enough but one thing I can think of is that with this theroy would it matter if the water was forced in all at once compaired to if it was released slowly into the ocean. Meaning if it was released slowly couldn't the oceans stablize to the amounts released per year to account for the freshening of the waters maybe not but just a question I have.
Andre's Avatar Andre
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Old 12-19-04, 05:15 AM
 #2
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As usual the story may be a bit different. For instance when did the ice age really end?

This is what the geology freshman have to memorize:

http://geog.hku.hk/undergrad/course/2038/2038cycl.htm

The Scandinavian Ice Sheet lasted slightly longer but melting of the North American Ice Sheet lagged by some 1,500 - 2,000 years. By 8,500 BP conditions in Europe were similar to their present state while in North America this was not the case until about 7000 BP.
However:

http://www.winona.msus.edu/geology/MRW/lecture12.html

glacial retreat was rapid - terminus in central Iowa 14,000 years ago, and ice disappeared up the Red River Valley into Canada by 12,000 years ago. And by 10,000 years ago, ice was also gone from the Superior Basin. By 8,000 years ago, ice bergs were calving into Hudson Bay
While at the same time:

http://www.erudit.org/revue/gpq/1999.../004859ar.html

While the recognition of deglacial patterns has proven difficult ...
When the ice margin retreated from the Mont Ham Moraine, about 12200 years BP, a new spillway was uncovered and water levels in the Saint-François valley fell by about 35 m to the level of a transitional phase. Further ice-marginal retreat to the position of the Ulverton-Tingwick, about 12100 years BP, caused water levels to drop to the level of Glacial Lake Candona (190-230 m), a large glacial lake that had formed by coalescence of three water bodies: Lake Iroquois, Glacial Lake Vermont and Glacial Lake Memphremagog. Within about 100 years following deposition of the Ulverton-Tingwick Moraine, ice retreat along the Appalachian piedmont resulted in the final drainage of Lake Candona, thus allowing Champlain Sea waters to invade much of these glaciolacustrine terrains by about 12000 years BP (corrected 14C years, d 13C = 0‰).
http://www.erudit.org/revue/gpq/1998.../004871ar.html

The deglaciation of Nova Scotia is reconstructed using the AMS-dated chronology of lake sediments and buried organic sections exposed in the basins of former glacial lakes. Ice cleared out of the Bay of Fundy around 13.5 ka, punctuated by a brief readvance ca. 13-12.5 ka (Ice Flow Phase 4). Glacial Lake Shubenacadie (1) formed in central Nova Scotia, impounded by a lobe of ice covering the northern Bay of Fundy outlet. Drainage was re-routed to the Atlantic Ocean until the Fundy outlet became ice free after 12 ka
etc, etc, there is plenty more where this is coming from.

Note that there is even more confusion as the indication "BP" is related to carbon dating, calibrated for d13C variation, but not for delta 14C variation (BP=Before Past, present being the year 1950=0 BP). The correction to real calender ages is well known and amounts to 1000 - 3000 years more in those time scales and 9000 years BP is about 11,000 years cal BP

Anyway It appears that the detailed scientific studies insist on a general retreat around 12,000 BP (ca 15,000 Cal BP) in America (which is about 4-5000 years earlier than Scandinavia), while the ice dammed lakes appeared to be active until 8200 Cal BP. There is something very fishy here.

So what caused that 8200 BP flood? I think it was the clathrate gun. To be more precise:

http://www.geog.ucl.ac.uk/~mmaslin/p...ns/Maslin1.pdf

Check the table on page 2 (54)- The heaviest Clathrate gun event that was ever recorded:

Storegga, Norwegian margin 8150 years (Cal) BP, A estimated 3500 kubic kilometres of Clathrate was converted to 160 time that space in Methane gas. It is reported by Jansen et al. (1987), Evans et al. (1996), Bouriak et al. (2000), Bryn et al. (2003)

And 8150 BP (oceanic calibrated) is well within the error margin of 8200 Cal BP. Coincidence?

edit to insert this link: http://members.dcn.org/dorritie/meth...tastrophe.html

Map of the Second Storegga Slide. This submarine landslide, which occurred about 8000 years ago, is one of the greatest underwater slides known. The black circles mark where deposits from the tsunamis that were generated by the slide have been found. The nearby numbers specify minimum tsunami heights in meters (yards). Though not indicated on this map, tsunami heights reached to over 20 meters in the Shetland Islands, the unlabeled island group just to the west of the "A" in Austrheim (Bondevik, 2003). The contour lines indicate seafloor depth, also in meters. (Map from Bondevik, 1997)
So, Creationists, looking for Noah's flood? Here is your best chance

Last edited by Andre; 12-19-04 at 05:43 AM..
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