(supposedly) reversing the entropy of closed systems

Mod note: This is a split thread from Entropy and evolution controversy.


Life can also lead to a 'global reversal of entropy', in more than one way.

Localized microbial life can concentrate certain metabolic precursors to one area of a hydro/atmosphere, decreasing the entropy of mixing at the incomplete expense of heat.

On the other hand intelligent life can create machines which reverse the entropy of closed systems. These can be machines that produce work or simply contraptions which decrease entropy of a system to show that it can be done.

Both microscopic and macroscopic life, and so evolution, can lead to a reversal of global entropy.

 

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You made this same claim in another thread. When I called your hand on it, you tried to hide behind some kind of smokescreen. Besides, you can't even construct such a closed system.

So why do you continue with this????

 

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Because I know I'm right. Once I write the paper I will post it here.

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Oh, sure! You can bet that nobody will be holding their breath. We've all seen these crank claims before.

 

And how do you know that none of them are right? I have in fact seen several machines that look like they would work, none economical of course. Its like extraterrestrial life, if you dig enough you will discover the truth.

 

How do I know? Oh, gee, let's see. Perhaps is because they all try to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? And then there's always energy conversion and frictional losses on top of that.

And besides, as I told you earlier, you can't even construct a closed system. Do you even understand what would constitute a closed system?

Foolish people have been trying to invent these machines for ages. Connecting a motor to a generator so that each drives the other, hundreds of "magnetically driven" contraptions - the list goes on and own. Some people have even wasted their ENTIRE lives and all their resources chasing after this false dream.

So, before you go running down that same primrose path, you had better talk to someone that can get some sense into your mind.

 

There is an old story that relates to what you are saying. It is about a King and a Dragon, a princess and a brave knight.

This story is set in a far away land, peaceful and wanting for nothing due to the efforts and attention of the King and his entire lineage. The only thing wrong in the kingdom is a terrible, evil Dragon which lives on a cave on the tallest mountain, beyond the dark woods. In this cave it has lived since the dawn of time, and it was said the woods grew on the heaps of carcasses that the dragon has dropped there.

One day, the King receives news of another attack on one of his villages this time his Prized Lamb has been devoured by the Dragon, along with the entire flock and village. He has raised this lamb from an ewe in the hope of producing the finest silk, the only kind from which a wedding dress fit for a member of the royal family (his daughter) could be made. Enraged, the king called for an assembly in the court, with the decree 'Let those come forward who have no fear of Death, for he who slays the Dragon will marry my only daughter'.

And the news spread. Many young men traveled through the dark woods, and up the mountain in the pursuit of the Dragon and the Kingdom on which it fed. None ever returned.

And yet, to this day, there are no dragons. Which means the Dragon was in fact slaughtered, and whoever has done the deed inherited the entire kingdom, and his sons and all of humanity have benefited greatly from the absence of dragons.


The story has many morals, among which are-
-don't assume that dragons ever existed in the first place
-don't assume that something is impossible just because no one has done it before
-don't mess with dragons

 

Have you written, or are you writing, a thesis?

 

That's a cute little story - but it has no relevance in an attempt to violate physical laws.

I asked you one very straightforward question that I would like you address - do you not realize that it's physically impossible to construct a closed system?

 

The Young Lad held his secret weapon close to his heart as he marched up the mountain to face the Dragon. He told many about his plan, and knew most likely what would happen once he faced the infernal lizard. He looked at the artifact in his hand, and continued up the mountain to do the deed.

 

You have misinterpreted the moral. Why try to defeat a Dragon when it clearly doesn't exist? Look further into yourself and reflect.

Right, the only closed system is the Universe, and that is expanding. However, a well insulated box (calorimeter) is enough of a closed system for some purposes.

 

Is that a yes or a no? I do not understand how your response answers my question.

 

Look deep into yourself and reflect....

No, I don't think there is enough for a thesis, I will try to write an article in as few words as I can to make my argument more potent.

 

Oh, I understood it just fine. But it's still nonsense in the context of this discussion.

Good - you got the first part right - but not the second. A well-insulated box is still not going to allow you to recycle heat over and over (your claim).

Even a common heat pump gives the illusion of "pushing heat uphill" and recycling it but it still requires an external energy source to run it. Which is more energy than it produces from it's operation.

In short, there's no way of beating the 2nd law. Entropy *always* wins.

 

And he came out of the dark wood, and they asked- have you done it, have you slain the dragon? And he proclaimed - yes, he is dead, and his noxious fumes will no longer suffocate you or your land. They didn't believe him - no one ever returned alive after facing the dragon.

I guess in short you're right if you only look at mainstream facts. There are fluctuations in entropy in any system - its not impossible for a system to become spontaneously ordered, even though the probability is quite small.

 

Sure - but only for a limited time. Entropy STILL wins in the end. It always will.

 

And he looked up at the towering peak, with smoke belching from a cave in its side, and he remembered the words of the townfolk - everyone who faced the dragon has died. He remembered those that were so optimistic, just like him, and yet they failed. Hope left him. Despair was fogging up his mind. He looked at the artifact in his hand; there was no doubt.

Okay, I jumped the gun a bit. Entropy does always win in the end, but it can still be reversed to do real work in real time. After a certain period of time all energy is dissipated as the universe approaches heat death, but this length of time can be stretched out using entropy reversal processes.

 

Ho-hum. That was almost enough to put me to sleep - so I'm going to bed now.

 

While this is the very stringent, important rule of physics, it is not a law. Laws of physics cannot be broken.

This is most certainly not true. There is a statistical probability that the entropy of any system will decrease at some point in time. This is not disputed.

Yes, but there is energy everywhere, at all times that could be used to run these machines. Perhaps it may even be possible to create energy in my scientifically founded opinion.

This is not my intention yet, I think that I will have to go through the formal route of proving things scientifically.

Perhaps I could take the role of an expert in perpetual motion? I don't see why perpetual motion, which has a very defined place in science, cannot even be discussed.

I think that entropy is a result of the big bang. If the greatest event in the history of the universe were at all an indicator of what were to follow, then it seems like entropy should be increasing everywhere all the times.



Its a healthy effort to try to do what is said to be impossible. To sail around the earth was once said to be impossible. And although the 2nd law of thermodynamics is more rooted in science and measurement than the notion of a flat earth, it is still upheld by dogma more than anything else.