Punctuation Convention

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by CheskiChips, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. CheskiChips Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,538
    Currently I am enrolled in a grammar course to brush up on proper writing techniques. I've learned that there are different conventions, the convention we're being taught is different than I recall. Could someone with more experience tell me if my understanding of the following punctuation usages is: wrong, correct in certain conventions, always correct?

    Quotations:
    I've always used a set of rules to determine the punctuation placement after the closing quotation mark.

    - If the citation is at the end of the cited sentence the period goes inside the end quote.
    Example:
    Dan said, "I couldn't find the key."

    - If the citation is not the completion of the sentence it goes outside the end quotation.
    Darwin notes that "some organisms breed freely under the most unnatural conditions". (Assuming the cited sentence continued on)

    - If I was citing a single word that was an original or uncommon word I used double quotes.
    Allan told me he found the oysters "repugnant" to his digestion tract.

    - If I was citing a single word that common I used single quotes.
    Allan described the oysters as a 'disgusting' food, I disagreed.

    - If it's an inquisitor and the citation was not a question I used this citation technique.
    As he wondered where he could find "the most delicious tuna known to man"?

    - If it's an inquisitor and the citation was in the question I used this citation technique.
    He agreed with what Dianne had said, "Where could one find good help these days?"


    It's tougher than I expected to write samples.
    The default position I am used to outside exception is: punctuation goes outside quotations, single quotes don't simply denote in-citation quotations, in text citation punctuation is contingent on the continuation of the citation.


    ----

    A couple of other issues I am having.

    I understood the tilda ~ to be a variation of the em-dash -, the tilda would denote a subordinance of importance to the following statement. For example:
    He had found dissent in his own ranks - deception - a think he despised with the greatest of fervor.
    vs.
    Never before was he affected so greatly by another individual ~ his confidence forever shaken, its return seemed unlikely..
     
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  3. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    Correct.
    The punctuation is correct, although you probably will find it done wrong fairly often.

    However, we use "that" only to introduce indirect quotes: Jesus said that the gimps are going to take over the planet, or something like that.

    You don't use "that" with a direct quote: Darwin notes, "some organisms breed freely under the most unnatural conditions".
    Correct.
    Incorrect, at least in American typography. Always use double quotes. You only use single quotes in the inner component of a nested quotation: I liked the part of your speech when you remarked, "Don't be like Kris Kristofferson, and hear yourself saying one day, 'I'd trade all my tomorrows for a single yesterday.' "
    This is wrong, because the sentence is not a question so it does not take a question mark. To simplify for clarity, suppose it were, Gosh I wonder whether I should bother the professor this early in the morning. That's a statement of what you're thinking, not a question. The question is in your head, not on the paper.

    Furthermore, as written, your sentence does not make it clear that you're actually quoting him or just paraphrasing. He wondered where he could find the most delicious tuna known to man. That's okay with no quote marks. If those seven words are his own exact language, then, He wondered where he could find "the most delicious tuna known to man." But if you want to make it a complete quote, it's, He wondered, "Where can I find the most delicious tuna known to man?"

    The "As" at the beginning of the line turns that into a clause rather than a complete sentence, so it's hard to analyze.
    That's correct.
    Indeed.

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    Not in America. The default is to put the punctuation mark inside the closing quote, unless it will change the meaning in some substantive way.

    We will happily write:

    Wasn't it George Washington who said, "I cannot tell a lie?"
    I'm not sure I understand what you just said. But in America single quotes are used for the internal component of a nested quotation, and that's just about all they're used for outside of computer programming.
    It's Spanish and it's spelled tilde
    I must say, I've never heard of this, but then I get surprised all the time. The tilde evolved from an N written above another letter, to show that it is not simply an N but changes the sound of the affected letter. Spanish ñ is pronounced NY but the N is palatalized, not a dental consonant as N usually is in Spanish. Portuguese ã is a nasalized vowel as in French.
    You must be British or Aussie because we don't write that way in the USA.

    He had found dissent in his own ranks: deception, a thing he despised with the greatest of fervor.

    At least I'm trying to figure out what that sentence means and parse it correctly!

    Maybe it's: He had found dissent in his own ranks--deception--a thing he despised with the greatest of fervor.

    I just don't see how dissent can be a form of deception, or vice versa, so I'm having trouble figuring this one out. If the dissent was deceitful because it was clandestine, then that should be made clearer. Anyway, on to the next one:

    Never before was he affected so greatly by another individual; his confidence forever shaken, its return seemed unlikely.

    In America the tilde is not used as a punctuation mark. It is used in mathematical notation. Other than that, it's a diacritical mark used for foreign words and names. It's also a tone marker in Vietnamese, and perhaps in romanization of the less well-known Chinese languages with twelve tones like Fuqian.

    But perhaps you need someone who's more familiar with British typographical rules. They may be different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
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  5. Spud Emperor solanaceous common tater Registered Senior Member

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    Fraggle! That's a bit clunky. How about "find it done incorrectly" or at least " fairly often find it done wrongly".

    And as for digestion tract!! People,... digestive!!

    Ugghh!
     
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  7. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    4,885
    Did Charles say "I love Mary"? It is surely logical to put ? outside the quotes. It is considered correct to do so? I think it ought to be correct.

    Did Charles say "I love Mary."? Should there also be a period inside?

    Charles said "I love Maree". This seems consistent with the above, but the following seems to be considered correct.

    Charles said "I love Maree."

    it gets worse if there is a question being quoted.

    Did charles say "Where is Mary?"? All would understand without the exterior ?, but is it correct to omit it?
     
  8. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    I can only cite American style rules. As I noted earlier, British punctuation does not always agree with ours. In American typography you never put the final punctuation mark to the right of the closing quotation mark unless it will confuse a (good) reader or actually change the meaning of the quotation or the whole sentence.

    I understand that in modern colloquial speech Charles might have actually said, "I love Mary?" as if to ask, "What's wrong with me? She's a convicted murderess!" I'll put that one aside until I actually run across it in my editing assignments.

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    And that's why we don't do it that way. Cluttering up the end of a sentence with multiple punctuation marks makes them hard to read, and gets the printer screaming about wasted space that could be used for advertising.
    Yet another reason why "the above" is not standard style
    On both sides of the Atlantic. We occasionally agree on the simple stuff.
    Yes--and once again, on both sides of the Atlantic. Surely if this topic interests you so greatly you can't help but be conscious of punctuation when you're reading. Have you EVER seen that construction? It would stand out like a neon sign.

    After all, language was spoken for eons before writing was invented, so apparently it contains all of the necessary signals to sort out questions from declaratives statements, without the very recent inventions called punctuation marks. In English, syntax is a very good guide. By putting "did" in front of the subject of your sentence, you have clearly told everyone that it's going to be a question, so the question mark isn't really necessary in the first place! In the second place, the quotation starts with a question word, identifying it as a question also, so neither question mark is absolutely necessary for clarity!
     

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