Rape Survivors: Anonymous Poll v.2

I. Preface

Once again we find ourselves facing a grim proposition. Rather, I find myself facing a proposition so absurdly macabre that I have no intention of leaving it alone.

someone violating you, stealing from you, and infringing upon your human rights...assaulting you, causing you physical, and/or emotional pain. it's all the same, whether it involves genitals or not.​

This is a difficult thread. The poll can be kept anonymous for those who wish to remain unknown. The subject nature of this thread, however, does not allow such luxury beyond that. That is, participating survivors will necessarily be attached to their user names.

I apologize for this, but find it unavoidable in the face of the proposition.

II. History

In another thread, a curious, restrictive thesis arose describing sexual intercourse as exclusively involving a penis and vagina:

"penis + vagina = sex. that's it. anything else is just stupid romanticism."​

This seems nearly trivial compared to the question that eventually arises. But the first response was to examine the implications of the restrictive thesis:

If a man were to hold you down and force his erect penis into your asshole, would you argue he should not be charged with rape? See, there's a lot of, shall we say, "misguided" legislators and prosecutors out there who would charge him with rape. But rape is sexual intercourse against one's will. And as it stands right now, one can be charged with sexual assault or rape if they force their penis down your throat or into your asshole.​

And perhaps that seems a controversial counterpoint, but if penis + vagina is the only thing that equals "sex", how can one charge a sex crime that doesn't involve both those factors? As I noted at the time, it's not the most elegant question, but it does examine the implications of such boundaries.

The response to that counterpoint seemed simple enough:

"rape is an act of violence, whatever the logistics might be."​

Which, of course, distilled the issue even further:

But if "penis + vagina = sex. that's it" is rape no longer a sex crime? I mean, is punching someone in the mouth rape?​

The thing is that sometimes people say something that sounds good in the moment, but also bears problematic implications if the argument is applied in any other context. These implications are the underlying focus of the counterpoint.

And, indeed, this seems like a trivial argument; there are semantic games that can be played. For instance, one could point to rhetoric suggesting anything other than heterosexual vaginal intercourse is mere masturbation and ask if public self-gratification should be a "sex" crime. That is, the idea of sex in terms of conduct instead of intercourse has yet to be explored.

III. Proposition

But that's not where the discussion went. Instead, it arrived at what I find a desperate, macabre assertion:

"in a metaphorical sense i guess. i don't come up with these labels, and i don't have a problem with them either. i'm just saying that i think the intent and the outcome is very much the same. someone violating you, stealing from you, and infringing upon your human rights...assaulting you, causing you physical, and/or emotional pain. it's all the same, whether it involves genitals or not."​

Now, in my life I have been physically assaulted. I've even been punished for the crimes of being jumped, held down, and beaten. People have stolen from me before. Additionally, I know people who have been attacked and beaten; who have been stolen from; and also people who have been raped, sexually assaulted, and sexually abused.

The understanding of all my life's experience is that no, these events are not the same. They have different degrees of impact on a person physically and psychologically.

But I'm a lucky one: I've never been raped.

IV. Inquiry

So I find myself turning here to sexual assault and abuse survivors, because this is the sort of question that begs an answer:

Rape and sexual abuse survivors:

• Have you ever been in a fight? (e.g., physical assault)

• Have you ever been robbed/burglarized/otherwise stolen from?

• How do the impacts of these events in your life compare to the impact of surviving rape or sexual abuse?​

I've known more sexual assault and abuse survivors than my conscience will cope with. And some of them have been in fights, have been mugged, have seen their cars stolen or homes burglarized. And as far as I can tell, the proposition that these events have the same impact—e.g., "whether it involves genitals or not"—is so inaccurate as to be offensive to many survivors.

But I'm not among them. I don't know. So I can only ask, and hope for your participation and insight.

Thank you.

V. Rules of Participation

Familiar rules apply: Your honest answers are appreciated. Anyone wishing to disclose information is welcome to do so, but I am obliged to remind that this is Sciforums, a place where "decency" is oft-considered a profane word. Members wishing to skew the poll or denigrate the discussion with false answers, accusations that survivors are lying about their experiences, or other undignified behavior are advised to simply stuff it and keep out of the way.

Suspicions of false stories or other concerns should be directed to me via private message.

Violations of these basic rules will be regarded severely.

 

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The only thing i can say is that i have never been in a physical fight (due to anger) and never been sexually assaultewd.

 

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tiassa thats a bit hard to answer, i mean its easy to say rape is worse than theft but what about physical abuse? Yes a punch in the face is probably lesser than being raped but is being held for days, electrocuted, having bits cut out of your skin, being burnt with soldering irons better or worse than having someone grab your breast for a min?

who cares which is worse, they are both horific (being raqped vs being tortured i mean, not just someone grabing a breast)

 

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Extended physical abuse and torture were not part of the original proposition.

And it's not necessarily about what is worse or who suffers more. To each their own. But when I was seventeen, I made the mistake of saying the words, "I understand," to a sex abuse survivor. And she properly advised me of my error.

But to take the proposition in question, let us consider that. Should my brother look at my friend, who was abused by her father for eight years, and say, "I know how you feel. Last month someone smashed my car window and stole my girlfriend's laptop."

My problem with the proposition is that is desperately irresponsible, being offered as a justification for bigotry.

Regardless of each person's psyche, I just don't see how a schoolyard fight or a crack to the head in a mugging equals being raped. The psychological literature over the years is fairly conclusive; there is something about human sexuality that reaches much, much deeper than other aspects of our lives. Unsettling that core generally demands a deeper, stronger, and more complex resolution than somebody splitting your lip in a tavern dispute about what bastards the New York Yankees are.

 

what if that "crack on the head" was hard enough to cause permident blindness?
you say there was no mention of sustained physical abuse but you want to compare a bar brawl to sustained sexual abuse? hell you might as well compare getting your ass pinched once with being on the berma railway in WW2. Im very hesitent to say that i understand anything i had not been directly involved in and even if i was no one reacts to things the same way.

an example of this was when i witnessed a fatal motocycle crash with some friends from work. We all saw the same thing, we all saw the guy come off his bike and hit the pole and die however the others just shruged it off while i needed to speak to a shrink. Everyone reacts to different stressors differently. One person (male or female) may coape with being raped while they collaps at someone burning there house down because for them thats the violation which makes them feel more unsafe. everyone has different breaking points and even for one person the breaking points might not be the same the whole time. There is good resurch done in this area as well on solders and emergency workers. Lots of them can "shrug off" horific incidents but then a cut on the finger latter may reduce them to tears.

As i said your question isnt one which can be easerly answered

 

Exceptional considerations

So it is about who suffers more?

I don't doubt the trauma. But what was its effect?

Was the impact of the same nature (speak nothing of degree) as the shit you went through in school?

I don't dispute any of this, but are all breakdowns the same?

While there is no reason that one's response to witnessing a fatal accident, or getting mugged on the street, wouldn't necessarily translate into sexual dysfunction, for instance, it would be statistically unusual if you lived the rest of your life in mortal fear of sexual contact because it made you recall the event. Psychopathology is diverse according to individuals, to be certain, but it is also somewhat systematic.

And, again, I would point out that issues pertaining to sexuality tend to reach much deeper than other aspects of our lives. How many psychopathic serial killers are impotent? How does that relate to their behavior? Now, how many of them can't throw a twelve-six curveball? (Or bowl a googly, as such.) Statistically speaking, while virtually nothing is impossible, some trends are simply more defined than others, and the role of sexuality will only come into one's inability to throw a hammer if there is some other trauma attached to it, like being relentlessly harassed as a faggot because you're not a good baseball player. (In other words, the cause wouldn't be your bad pitching.)

I don't expect an easy answer. Although we can get some range of what we're working with. Fights affect me much more than theft. I have no idea what a rape would do to me.

But some people have been through all of these, and we can learn something from them about how things appear through the looking glass.

As a working hypothesis, I can tell you what I expect: Rape survivors will tend to see the events as not being the same; while I cannot establish as specific a projection for those of us who are fortunate enough to have not been raped or abused, I expect a higher result suggesting that the events are, in fact, all the same.

As a personal note, my father has long been an opponent of what he calls "Auntie Em" cases. If I recall, he picked it up from a professor in college. These are the inevitable statistical deviations. For any general principle, as such, someone else could say, "Well, my Auntie Em ...."

Yes, a crack on the head hard enough to cause permanent blindness is going to have a deep effect on a person. But comparatively, there are few of these compared to rape survivors. In the United States, there are seventy-thousand reported rapes on college campuses every year. I cannot find a statistic on how many people are blinded in muggings or bar brawls, but I assure you it is considerably less.

And one other thing: How does one's environment relate to the trauma?

For instance, in 2007, Melissa McEwan responded to XM shock jocks Opie and Anthony:

One of their guests, a man called Homeless Charlie, says, “I’ll tell you what—what’s that George Bush bitch, um, Rice…? Condoleezza Rice? … I’d love to fuck that bitch dead, man,” at which point the rest of the studio erupts into laughter. Homeless Charlie says again, “I’ll fuck that bitch to death,” to which Opie/Anthony reply, “I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice’s face—” [uproarious laughter and interjection "When she realizes what's going on!"] “—as you’re just like holding her down and fucking her.” More uproarious laughter, prompting Homeless Charlie to continue: “Punch her all in the fucking face—shut up, bitch!” Says Opie/Anthony: “That’s exactly what I meant!” [raucous laughter]

Continues Homeless Charlie: “And George Bush wife? I’ll fuck that bitch to death!” Opie/Anthony (pretending to be Homeless Charlie): “Hey woman! Hey woman! I’ll show you a real man! Why don’t you come by my box?—I’ll show you a real man!” [laughter]

And then, just so this spectacular conversation doesn’t die a premature death, one of the hosts prompts Homeless Charlie to keep going, with: “Hey—what about, uh, what about the Queen? Current events—the Queen just finally went back to her dumb castle or whatever.” Homeless Charlie exclaims: “Fuck that bitch! … Fuck the Queen. She lost. You lost, bitch. Why you coming over here, you horse-faced looking bitch? [whinny]” [laughter]

What a bunch of wacky crack-ups these guys are.

Honestly, I’m not sure I can accurately convey how deeply upsetting this clip is. It pisses me off to no fucking end—I can feel the anger twisting in my gut and curling its tendrils around my ribs like its own seething entity—but it also frightens me. The first time I listened to it, goosebumps raised across my flesh and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck. The hatred of women is palpable; the urge to dominate and destroy. Fuck that bitch to death ....​

And this is kind of an issue in the U.S. from time to time. Who are these hypersensitive feminazis out to wreck everyone else's good time?

Naturally, I’ll be called a humorless feminist. Fine. If not laughing at a bunch of men sitting around talking about fucking women to death makes me a humorless feminist, then I wear the badge proudly—because I’m not just a humorless feminist; I’m a bitch who was nearly fucked to death. Isn’t that just fucking hilarious?

I’m a bitch who tore out her fingernails by the roots in the carpet trying to crawl away from someone who nearly fucked me to death. I’m a bitch whose face was smashed against a stone fireplace because I fought back, leaving me groggy and bleeding from one end—and with a permanently chipped tooth as a souvenir—while I got torn apart at the other. I’m a bitch who was left lying in a pool of her own blood, which I later cleaned up so my parents wouldn’t find out, because I was 16 years old and scared and ashamed and grew up in a culture that tells bitches who nearly get fucked to death that it’s their fault. Isn’t that just fucking hilarious?

You know what it feels like to be nearly fucked to death? It feels like your insides are being ripped out of your body. It feels humiliating. It feels like the intangible thing that makes one a person is being irreparably broken. By the end of it, you feel as though death would be relief from the pain and the shame and utter, wretched brokenness of self you feel. And, being lucky enough to be only nearly fucked to death, you get to live with that for the rest of your life, and, perhaps, on your thirty-third birthday, you might realize that this is the year when you’ll have lived longer with those scars across your skin and your soul than you lived without them.​

Philosophically, I hear your point. Practically, though, it's not translating well. Yes, we can devise—and the world has seen—non-sexual atrocities that bring the same effects, both in nature and degree. But statistically, this is a deviation, and compared to the proposition—

"... the intent and the outcome is very much the same. someone violating you, stealing from you, and infringing upon your human rights...assaulting you, causing you physical, and/or emotional pain. it's all the same, whether it involves genitals or not."​

—I'm puzzled by your insistence. The proposition is, in my opinion, untenable. Whatever exceptional circumstances we might devise in theory, or recognize in the historical record, will not change that.
____________________

Notes:

McEwan, Melissa. "Rape is Hilarious". Shakesville. May 11, 2007. Shakesville.WordPress.com. December 14, 2009. http://shakesville.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/rape-is-hilarious/

 

tiassa my insistence is by no means to maginalise the effects of rape but rather to point out i dont like generalisations. For instance not all sexual assult is rape, any more than the majority of physical assult is murder. The pinch on the ass, someone feeling you up against your will is PROBABLY the majority of sexual assults and is in psycological terms i would be surprised to find on a general scale that it equated to alot more psycological damage than a physical fight. Possably more possable less but rather comparitable. Rape is on the same scale as true serious assult (the sorts that do leave people in wheel chairs, blind or even dead as was shown by David Hooks) as is the psycological damage that goes with it.


Oh and on the avoidance thing, thats more commen than you would realise, sure i wasnt avoiding sex but rather i couldnt walk into the center of the city where the acident happened. Its a very very common defense mechanisum, it took me a very long time and alot of work before i could actually go back to put flowers on the pole he died from

 

well, rape is assault, but not assault is rape. Right?

 

true, so?
murder is an assult to but an assult doesnt nessarly lead to a murder

 

what are you talking about?? Murder was in the poll?

 

rape has never been an eqivilant crime to simple assult (ie a bar fight) i doubt anyone would ever say it was. Its closer equivilant as a crime would be agravated assult (though there is agravated sexual assult as well).

So i dont get why you and tiassa would ever equate it to "hey you knocked over my beer" *smack* "ok come and have a drink with me now" kind of crime.

Personally as i said i would never equate one crime to another, each should be "judged" (if you insist on judging them at all) on the harm they do to the indervidual (both physical and psycological) at that time, not on some sliding scale.

There maybe people who would rather be raped than end up blind or in a wheel chair because of an assult and there maybe people who would rather be put in a wheel chair or left blind because of an assult rather than be raped. Basically what difference does it make? If it hurts them then its important to them.

to go back to something tiassa said "i understand...." you should NEVER say that to ANYONE wether its an assult, a rape, a theft, a car crash, a death in the family, a mental illness, or a physical illness. You dont understand because your NOT THEM. its as simple as that. You cant judge there level of distress in another person no matter what has happened to them. You provide the help they need, you lission to them and YOU DONT JUDGE. That is psycology 101

 

well, some abuse survivors I do judge.
If a man hits you, you leave. Going back to him is stupid.

 

really, are you in there head? are you in that situation so you can judge the reasons (valid or not) and emotions which lead them to that decision?

how nice it must be to live in your ivory tower

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Yeah well, my kids are safe in my ivory tower. I judge a person who keeps their kids in that kind of environment.

 

It isnt.

 

I don't feel that they are all the same.

I would take most forms of physical injury over rape, no problem.

That pinch on the ass does indeed do worse things to your head than a physical fight.

That pinch on the ass is someone using physical touch to tell you, you don't count as a human with a will of her own.

It's someone overriding your autonomy as a person and renaming you as an object, something for their pleasure only.

It's someone telling you, your will doesn't matter, you are only a piece of flesh here for their use, you have no power in the world.

I would take a physical fracture of a bone over that pinch on the ass. No problem.

 

thats you, personally i would rather take a pinch on the ass than be put into a situation i felt compleatly powerless (ie a fight that left me broken and brused). But then you would probably feel more in control in a fight, im not a fighter so i dont and you could probably handle me like a kitten in a fight

 

i agree with you, to a point. these things are different for females because often times the pat on the ass escalates. being a male though a pat on the ass from a female isnt so bad.

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who said i would find it nice? i wasnt talking about PB doing it. Since you seem incapable of understanding that female "attention" could be unwanted why dont you imagin that it was another guy. Same difference, i would still rather that than be put in a fight because i feel compleatly powerless in a fight, its not a situation i can handle.

 

the same could be said about the abuser couldn't it? Would you ever judge the rapist?