what if God could be proven?

**Dywyddyr** · 11-16-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by 786

But the effect of it is natural to a natural perceive like us.

You see?
Wrong again, otherwise it wouldn't be supernatural by the definition I've given.

**786** · 11-16-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by (Q)

Your fallacious assumption that something is there is refuted by your own inability to examine it.

Not being able to examine something doesn't show it doesn't exist... Your argument is fallacious.

Peace be unto you

**spidergoat** · 11-16-09, 03:37 PM

That's a misconception. If natural things were manipulated with no apparent cause, that violated natural laws. If there was a cause, then there was no supernatural intervention.

**786** · 11-16-09, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

That's a misconception. If natural things were manipulated with no apparent cause, that violated natural laws. If there was a cause, then there was no supernatural intervention.

But the cause would have to be shown as natural.

If there is a closed system with internal net 0 force- this is natural. And suddenly the force became 10. The change was due to something 'external' (supernatural) but the change is observed in the closed system (natural).

Peace be unto you

**786** · 11-16-09, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

You see?
Wrong again, otherwise it wouldn't be supernatural by the definition I've given.

Precisely, that is why the only evidence you examine is natural not supernatural. Your definition doesn't differentiate between supernatural cause vs supernatural effect.

Peace be unto you

**Bebelina** · 11-16-09, 03:46 PM

We can make a test.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzq5X-p2C0Y

**spidergoat** · 11-16-09, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by 786

But the cause would have to be shown as natural.

If there is a closed system with internal net 0 force- this is natural. And suddenly the force became 10. The change was due to something 'external' (supernatural) but the change is observed in the closed system (natural).

Peace be unto you

If we suddenly observe such a change with no apparent cause, then that would support a super or extranatural force (assuming all other options have been ruled out). Nothing of the sort appears to occur. Ever.

**sifreak21** · 11-16-09, 03:48 PM

the thing i dont get to all of you religious folk is this.. if you can "if you do" believe in a higher power where there is no hard proof at all of "besides your own faith/belief" if you do believe in that how can you not believe in other life? aliens? ufos?

the thing is there is more hard evidence about ufos than god, like it or not almost every goverment in the world including our own have classified and unclassified documents of "ufos" and not one thing of god.. you can debate all day and ufo in lamens terms is unidentified flying object.. aka something in the air that you cant identify

**(Q)** · 11-16-09, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by 786

Not being able to examine something doesn't show it doesn't exist... Your argument is fallacious.

It does show it isn't there until evidence to the contrary presents itself.

Got any of that evidence?

**sifreak21** · 11-16-09, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by (Q)

It does show it isn't there until evidence to the contrary presents itself.

Got any of that evidence?

i agree.. onlything they have "evidence" of is their faith or believe, thats why religous people always get defensive when you question them

**(Q)** · 11-16-09, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by 786

But the cause would have to be shown as natural.

If there is a closed system with internal net 0 force- this is natural. And suddenly the force became 10. The change was due to something 'external' (supernatural) but the change is observed in the closed system (natural).

An excellent example of this assumption can be made with the tsunami that swept a quarter million god fearing theists to their deaths. Was it supernatural or natural? We observed a natural change occurring within the system, but according to 786 logic, it was a supernatural event.

Peace be unto you

Water be over you.

**786** · 11-16-09, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

If we suddenly observe such a change with no apparent cause, then that would support a super or extranatural force (assuming all other options have been ruled out). Nothing of the sort appears to occur. Ever.

We have never been able to observe the complete forces of our system (universe)- or at least measure them all at any given time to notice the changes that are occurring. Because if the changes were in some proportion then everything would seem 'normal'- even though there may be change-

Its interesting subject to think about though but I don't think its going to be observed.

I think if the universe is a closed system, the net force would have to equal 0 at all times, then one has to ask what led to the big bang to give it initial force to create everything? Either the origin of the universe is from a supernatural force (extranatural) or the universe is eternal- in which case Big Bang wouldn't work.

Peace be unto you

**786** · 11-16-09, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by (Q)

It does show it isn't there until evidence to the contrary presents itself.

Lol.... the existence of something does not depend on its ability to be observed... If it exists it exists.

DNA always existed, even if it wasn't observed by early Humans.

Peace be unto you

**786** · 11-16-09, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by (Q)

but according to 786 logic, it was a supernatural event.

I never said that... although it potentially could be.

Peace be unto you

**786** · 11-16-09, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by sifreak21

i agree.. onlything they have "evidence" of is their faith or believe, thats why religous people always get defensive when you question them

Well if you question then they have to respond, no?

Peace be unto you

**786** · 11-16-09, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by sifreak21

the thing i dont get to all of you religious folk is this.. if you can "if you do" believe in a higher power where there is no hard proof at all of "besides your own faith/belief" if you do believe in that how can you not believe in other life? aliens? ufos?

the thing is there is more hard evidence about ufos than god, like it or not almost every goverment in the world including our own have classified and unclassified documents of "ufos" and not one thing of god.. you can debate all day and ufo in lamens terms is unidentified flying object.. aka something in the air that you cant identify

I don't have problems accepting that ufos or aliens exist... their existence has nothing to do with whether supernatural being exists or not.

Peace be unto you

**(Q)** · 11-16-09, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by 786

We have never been able to observe the complete forces of our system (universe)

If physics is correct, we must assume the entire universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Hence, we've observed the forces that govern it.

one has to ask what led to the big bang to give it initial force to create everything?

A question that is being currently pondered, by a number of groups, scientists included.

Either the origin of the universe is from a supernatural force (extranatural) or the universe is eternal- in which case Big Bang wouldn't work.

Wrong on all counts. Thanks for the faith based wisdom.

**spidergoat** · 11-16-09, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by 786

We have never been able to observe the complete forces of our system (universe)- or at least measure them all at any given time to notice the changes that are occurring. Because if the changes were in some proportion then everything would seem 'normal'- even though there may be change-

Its interesting subject to think about though but I don't think its going to be observed.

Are you suggesting that we believe something that can never be observed? I have an invisible unicorn to sell you. Please see your PM.

I think if the universe is a closed system, the net force would have to equal 0 at all times, then one has to ask what led to the big bang to give it initial force to create everything? Either the origin of the universe is from a supernatural force (extranatural) or the universe is eternal- in which case Big Bang wouldn't work.

First thing is, the Big Bang happened. Could it happen and still maintain a net zero energy? Why not? It needed no force since the total energy is still the same!

**Dywyddyr** · 11-16-09, 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by 786

Precisely, that is why the only evidence you examine is natural not supernatural. Your definition doesn't differentiate between supernatural cause vs supernatural effect.

One more utter failure to understand on your part.
I'm not sure if you're actually obtuse or simply trolling for the sake of it.

**786** · 11-16-09, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by (Q)

If physics is correct, we must assume the entire universe is homogeneous and isotropic. Hence, we've observed the forces that govern it.

have we measured all of them at various points in time to determine the changes?

A question that is being currently pondered, by a number of groups, scientists included.

They are trying to find what particles were involved, not how the net force of the system changed.

Wrong on all counts. Thanks for the faith based wisdom.

No, it has nothing to do with faith. Its simply thinking about how the forces have the cause and effect relationship, and how the net force would be conserved in a closed system.

Peace be unto you