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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #21
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    What's going on here?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    What's going on here?
    A few of us are doing a project for our english class. We're just looking to give our views on healthcare and hear others' views as well.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by tennischamp View Post
    It would be great if America was able to support a system like that. No one really wants other people to have to suffer because they can't afford health insurance. However, with our current national debt, the idea seems impossible right now. Adopting a system like that would cost a tremendous amount, and we have many other financial problems as it is. Plus, you're right, many Americans are against the idea of taking a step that would seem to be in the direction of socialism. I know many devoted Republicans, and they are firmly against many actions of the Democratic Party because they believe they want things that are too socialist.

    Second of all, a system like Canada's and Europe's does seem great. No one goes without medicine or surgeries or x-rays they need because they can afford to go to the doctor and have expensive procedures done. However, this system has one major downfall: waiting lists are incredibly long for things like surgeries and other major medical procedures. Because everyone can afford it, everyone that needs this procedure wants it done immediately. I used to live near Detroit, so we could go into Canada within an hour over the bridge without any trouble. I knew one lady who lived in Canada that came over to Detroit regularly for her doctor and hospital because she simply couldn't wait long for certain procedures in Canada. She needed some kind of transplant, and the waiting list she was put on for a new organ was so long that she wouldn't have survived without this organ for that amount of time. So, she paid a little extra money and came to the US to have the transplant. It's a good thing that everyone can get the medical treatment they need, but it sort of defeats the purpose when the waiting lists are so long that they can't get the treatment in time.
    I think wait times are not material if it is not material to the outcome of treatment and assuming I am not waiting in a waiting room for extended periods of time and neither of those situations seems to be the case in places with "soicalized" single payer type healthcare systems.

    As for the organ transplant, one has to have a donor first. In the US, organs are ususally rationed on a first come best use basis. And organs cannot be readily stored. So when an organ comes available, it has be be used immediately or they are worthless.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_...ada#Wait_times

    As for cost, the US cannot afford not to control healthcare cost and reform healthcare. As pointed out in the Business Roundtable study, costs are rising at several orders of magnitude greater than income.

  4. #24

    Health Care Reform

    First of all I would just like to say that I oppose President Obama's new Health Care reform, and this is for several reasons. I believe in a Free Enterprise system of Health Care, meaning that I do not believe that the government should be involved, specifically, in private businesses and whether they provide health care for their employees or not. I personally believe that health care is a privilege, and not a right. For those individuals that are struggling and not able to receive private health care, there are already several different social programs in which the government offers which are paid for by those who are capable of working and contributing to the tax vault of our country. So i do not see when there needs to be a reform. Those who are left without health care are not necessarily abandoned, because there are other options that are available to them currently.

    President Obama's new health care system that he has presented to our country is that he will take the money from the existing Medicare Program, which is designed for the elderly and the sick and use it to pay for those who do not have health care. I noticed that some people were posting on here that they believed it "would be more fair for him to do this because it would benefit families who cant afford health care so that they don't have to worry", however I would have to disagree with you, and say that this is actually unfair. The money that is being given to those who do not have health care, is money that is being taken away from others. The elderly and sick individuals are the people who need health care the most, and in order for this reform to happen the government is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another. How is this fair? The current Medicare recipients have worked their entire lives, paid taxes and social security, and they are the individuals that deserve the health care. Not those who have not contributed. Also, as for small businesses, President Obama wants to make all employers pay, and if the employer refuses to do so, then they will be fined. The only way, in which this will be a benefit to anyone, is if the employer is capable of paying for the health care of their employees. But what happens if they are not capable? If a small business does not want to pay for health care for all of their employees, they should not have to do so, considering this would cause them to have to take out of the profits that they have made. Businesses obviously should be entitled to make the decision on their own, because the reason that individuals work, is to make profits. These profits go towards hiring more workers, feeding their families, buying products for their companies, having insure, and offering pay raises to their employees. In order to stimulate the economy, all of these things are needed in the small businesses so that they can expand. It is also stated that more than 50% of employers pay for part, or all of their employee’s health care anyways, so why would this reform be needed to force all businesses to do it, when most of them do anyways?

  5. #25
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conli323
    I do not believe that the government should be involved, specifically, in private businesses and whether they provide health care for their employees or not.
    They won't be. If an employer does not provide health care, you can buy into the public option.

    Quote Originally Posted by conli323
    Those who are left without health care are not necessarily abandoned, because there are other options that are available to them currently.
    You mean the emergency room, which is funded by taxes? Health care actually costs less, because it prevents diseases from becoming severe.

    Quote Originally Posted by conli323
    The money that is being given to those who do not have health care, is money that is being taken away from others.
    Nonsense. The government would be expanding a medicare-like system, which is funded by premiums, just like private insurance. No one on medicare will lose any coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by conli323
    If a small business does not want to pay for health care for all of their employees, they should not have to do so
    They do not have to, that's what the public option is for.

  6. #26
    Well...Where does Medicare get its funding then? If you have a paystub, from any pay check that you have recieved, you obviously know that it is a mandate withdrawl of 7.85% paid for by the employee and 7.85% paid for by the employers...which is Social Security/Meidcare.This is mandated to be paid (or in other words...taken from) employees and employers.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by conli323 View Post
    First of all I would just like to say that I oppose President Obama's new Health Care reform, and this is for several reasons. I believe in a Free Enterprise system of Health Care, meaning that I do not believe that the government should be involved, specifically, in private businesses and whether they provide health care for their employees or not. I personally believe that health care is a privilege, and not a right. For those individuals that are struggling and not able to receive private health care, there are already several different social programs in which the government offers which are paid for by those who are capable of working and contributing to the tax vault of our country. So i do not see when there needs to be a reform. Those who are left without health care are not necessarily abandoned, because there are other options that are available to them currently.

    President Obama's new health care system that he has presented to our country is that he will take the money from the existing Medicare Program, which is designed for the elderly and the sick and use it to pay for those who do not have health care. I noticed that some people were posting on here that they believed it "would be more fair for him to do this because it would benefit families who cant afford health care so that they don't have to worry", however I would have to disagree with you, and say that this is actually unfair. The money that is being given to those who do not have health care, is money that is being taken away from others. The elderly and sick individuals are the people who need health care the most, and in order for this reform to happen the government is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another. How is this fair? The current Medicare recipients have worked their entire lives, paid taxes and social security, and they are the individuals that deserve the health care. Not those who have not contributed. Also, as for small businesses, President Obama wants to make all employers pay, and if the employer refuses to do so, then they will be fined. The only way, in which this will be a benefit to anyone, is if the employer is capable of paying for the health care of their employees. But what happens if they are not capable? If a small business does not want to pay for health care for all of their employees, they should not have to do so, considering this would cause them to have to take out of the profits that they have made. Businesses obviously should be entitled to make the decision on their own, because the reason that individuals work, is to make profits. These profits go towards hiring more workers, feeding their families, buying products for their companies, having insure, and offering pay raises to their employees. In order to stimulate the economy, all of these things are needed in the small businesses so that they can expand. It is also stated that more than 50% of employers pay for part, or all of their employee’s health care anyways, so why would this reform be needed to force all businesses to do it, when most of them do anyways?
    A couple of things, first the issue is healthcare costs are rising at a signficant multiple to earnings. That kind of historical growth rate is not sustainable. So if you are able to afford healthcare today, unless you have several million in the bank ten years from now, you will not be nor will most businesses be able to afford healthcare insurance; leaving businesses at an even higher competitive disadvantage in the US than what exists today, or workers will have to go without healthcare.

    Most importantly, the US does not have a free enterprise system of healthcare today. Healthcare markets are very regulated. Everything from physician training and certification to the marketing of prescription drugs is monitored and regulated by multiple government agencies. All of this industry induced and supported regulation has led to oligipolies that gives producers virtually absoulte control over pricing with statuatory legal pricing protections (e.g. Medicare Prescription Drug Bill with no bid provisions).

    The Democrat approach uses government purchasing power to drive some competition into the healthcare market place. You can look at the Democrat approach as similar to Alexander's solving the Gordian knot.

    As for the Democrats wanting to take money from Medicare Part C (Medicare Advantage), Part C was implemented in 1999 by our dear Republican friends in congress was a giveaway of public funds to the insurance industry, adding little in the way of value to the elderly especially if they became chronically ill. Taking that additional funding which does not contribute to nor take away from Medicare core benefits does not leave the elderly without insurance.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Nonsense. The government would be expanding a medicare-like system, which is funded by premiums, just like private insurance. No one on medicare will lose any coverage.
    The government will have to expand this program, yes, but where will it get the funds it needs? Will it have to increase the deficit we are already experiencing? I know healthcare is high on the government's priority list, I would just like to know if this will hurt the country's financial state significantly or not.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tennischamp View Post
    The government will have to expand this program, yes, but where will it get the funds it needs? Will it have to increase the deficit we are already experiencing? I know healthcare is high on the government's priority list, I would just like to know if this will hurt the country's financial state significantly or not.
    The government is already on the hook for a huge healthcare expenses committed too by previous administrations, most recently by Republicans. The government is already committed to paying about half the healthcare expenses in the US.

    The question is do we want to continue down the path we are on which will result in higher taxes, larger deficits, and more individuals uninsured or do we want to reform healthcare as proposed by Democrats by interjecting some good old free market competition and reduce expected healthcare costs by a 100 plus billion dollars and cover everyone in the process.

    I suggest you take a look at the positions of the Business Roundtable, American Medical Association, American Association of Retired People, American Nursing Association.

    http://www.businessroundtable.org/healthstudy

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by mgajmp1011 View Post
    Through the years healthcare for Americans has become a larger problem.
    So is your formatting. Paragraph, man. Really, I appreciate your effort to sound sensible, but you could have had just as much effect just by hitting the return key a tad more often.

    ...worrying that it might put the economy in worse shape than it is.
    Whereas I see it more like taking your child to the dentist once or twice every year, so all you will ever have to pay for is a teeth-cleaning and, at worst, a filling. If our healthcare system were budgeted responsibly, then it would reduce costs in the long-term.

    Among the Democrats, though, there is relatively little debate as to whether we should improve our healthcare system. On the other hand, there actually is debate as far as HOW to improve our healthcare system.

    Unfortunately, some incredibly dishonest politicians, namely the GOP, have been trying to persuade people to believe that this means that some Democrats have chosen to align themselves with the GOP. This is a false characterization, but it benefits the GOP if they can persuade the American public to believe that have some strength left in Congress.

    The truth is that the GOP has been completely castrated at this point. They are probably going to lose in next year's elections, and hopefully we'll finally be able to round up these criminals, and shove them into Guantanamo.

    The Israeli government pays about $4,000 less per person for healthcare than here in the United States.
    Balderdash! It never pays for the government to spend any money on preventative medicine! If people can't be bothered to pay for their own prevention, then they will just have to suffer the consequences!

    We should abolish fire brigades, by God! After all, weren't fire brigades the invention of Nero? Remember how Nero used to persecute the followers of Jesus? Fire brigades are a harbinger of the Antichrist!

    We should abolish ALL emergency services! We are being taxed to death! Why in the Hell should I have to pay an arm and a leg out of my tax dollars to keep some friggin' moron's house from burning down because he left a paper towel on the stove? I would never do something that stupid, so why should I have to pay for the consequences of other people's mistakes?!

    But hey, if you want it, then let it happen! The government will SPEND and SPEND and SPEND some more, and all of us who WORK for a living will PAY and PAY and PAY some more! And what are we paying for? We are paying for the incompetence and laziness of wasteful degenerates who will never amount to anything! That's what!

    That's no utopia! That's a vision of Hell!!! And meanwhile, I have completely forgotten about the concept that I could be paying LESS, in tax dollars, under universal healthcare! I honestly don't give a crap! It is just sickening to any honest, working man to see people who will never lift a finger to help themselves being treated for some life-threatening disease!

    Honestly! How could you do that??? They should be suffering in pain, not getting free healthcare!!! How could you do something so horrible to people who worked for their entire lives to get the same thing? Doing all that work just won't be worth it all of a sudden! WASTED!!! I feel like I wasted my time showing up for work every business day, for the only thing that motivates me to show any personal responsibility is the opportunity for personal gain! I never liked showing up for work because I never liked anyone there, and that's because I voted against all those laws saying my employer had to treat me okay! Boo-hoo-hoo!

    My father never hugged me after I was six years old, and that taught me that I should stand up for myself! It taught me that losers will always be losers, and they will always get what they deserve! Now that you've got me so upset, I'm going to go home and beat my son and bounce him off the walls, so he'll grow up to show you a thing or two!
    Last edited by Alien Cockroach; 11-13-09 at 08:08 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Alien Cockroach View Post
    So is your formatting. Paragraph, man. Really, I appreciate your effort to sound sensible, but you could have had just as much effect just by hitting the return key a tad more often.

    Whereas I see it more like taking your child to the dentist once or twice every year, so all you will ever have to pay for is a teeth-cleaning and, at worst, a filling. If our healthcare system were budgeted responsibly, then it would reduce costs in the long-term.

    Among the Democrats, though, there is relatively little debate as to whether we should improve our healthcare system. On the other hand, there actually is debate as far as HOW to improve our healthcare system.

    Unfortunately, some incredibly dishonest politicians, namely the GOP, have been trying to persuade people to believe that this means that some Democrats have chosen to align themselves with the GOP. This is a false characterization, but it benefits the GOP if they can persuade the American public to believe that have some strength left in Congress.

    The truth is that the GOP has been completely castrated at this point. They are probably going to lose in next year's elections, and hopefully we'll finally be able to round up these criminals, and shove them into Guantanamo.

    Balderdash! It never pays for the government to spend any money on preventative medicine! If people can't be bothered to pay for their own prevention, then they will just have to suffer the consequences!

    We should abolish fire brigades, by God! After all, weren't fire brigades the invention of Nero? Remember how Nero used to persecute the followers of Jesus? Fire brigades are a harbinger of the Antichrist!

    We should abolish ALL emergency services! We are being taxed to death! Why in the Hell should I have to pay an arm and a leg out of my tax dollars to keep some friggin' moron's house from burning down because he left a paper towel on the stove? I would never do something that stupid, so why should I have to pay for the consequences of other people's mistakes?!

    But hey, if you want it, then let it happen! The government will SPEND and SPEND and SPEND some more, and all of us who WORK for a living will PAY and PAY and PAY some more! And what are we paying for? We are paying for the incompetence and laziness of wasteful degenerates who will never amount to anything! That's what!

    That's no utopia! That's a vision of Hell!!! And meanwhile, I have completely forgotten about the concept that I could be paying LESS, in tax dollars, under universal healthcare! I honestly don't give a crap! It is just sickening to any honest, working man to see people who will never lift a finger to help themselves being treated for some life-threatening disease!

    Honestly! How could you do that??? They should be suffering in pain, not getting free healthcare!!! How could you do something so horrible to people who worked for their entire lives to get the same thing? Doing all that work just won't be worth it all of a sudden! WASTED!!! I feel like I wasted my time showing up for work every business day, for the only thing that motivates me to show any personal responsibility is the opportunity for personal gain! I never liked showing up for work because I never liked anyone there, and that's because I voted against all those laws saying my employer had to treat me okay! Boo-hoo-hoo!

    My father never hugged me after I was six years old, and that taught me that I should stand up for myself! It taught me that losers will always be losers, and they will always get what they deserve! Now that you've got me so upset, I'm going to go home and beat my son and bounce him off the walls, so he'll grow up to show you a thing or two!
    Wow, it sounds like you have quite a chip on your shoulder. I am sorry to hear about your childhood experiences. However, you are not the only one with a tragic childhood. I myself was orphaned and grew up in a place my brothers and I called the stinky house with little family support. But that does not mean, one has to carry a chip around with them. For your own good, maybe some counseling would be helpful.

    I think what you don't understand is that house that is on fire is your house. And the fire needs to be fought in order to save all of our homes.

    I agree with you that taxes on the middle class are exorbitant and job pressures are mounting. However, that does not mean that health insurance and healthcare costs should not be controlled and the healthcare system improved and more competitive, else healthcare will become a thing of the past for middle class Americans as it will become unafforable. Additionally, government will be forced to default on its already existing healthcare commitments (see Business Roundtable study).

    Healthcare costs today are high and growing because of all the special interest regulation forced on healthcare consumers by the healthcare industry. It is high past time for more competition in the healthcare industry that favors the working stiff and his family.
    Last edited by joepistole; 11-13-09 at 10:23 AM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeciliaStelzer View Post
    All of the information is purposefully smudged, blotched, or under-researched. And then people will go online to find their information about healthcare and it will be from someone who read a misinterpretation of a misinterpretation. Now whenever I meet people who argue against things like this, they have hearsay and speculation for facts. When you look deep into the issue of healthcare, there really aren't as many drawbacks as people are led to believe. There is a really good article on this called "Six Conservative Myths About Health Care." I would post the link, but my account isn't old enough.

    I agree with your argument that much of the information found on the Internet about health care has been misinterpreted. Although, I also believe that information taken from an actual speech, such as the information that I have researched about the health care situation is more reliable than a Wikipedia source. If anybody would like to watch the speech given by Congressman Mike Rogers, it is available on YouTube.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by kac11 View Post
    I agree with your argument that much of the information found on the Internet about health care has been misinterpreted. Although, I also believe that information taken from an actual speech, such as the information that I have researched about the health care situation is more reliable than a Wikipedia source. If anybody would like to watch the speech given by Congressman Mike Rogers, it is available on YouTube.
    Yes Wikipedia is unreliable, but isn't it also possible that both sources are unreliable? Just because it is better than the least reliable source on the internet, doesn't make it a good source. Also, did you ever answer what joepistole asked earlier?:

    Below is a link to the referenced text, show me where it validates the claim that you attribute to Congressman Rogers.

    The bottom line, the statement you attributed to Congressman Rogers is not correct. No where in the bill does it say that the comissioner has the power to disenroll individuals from their own plan. Why am I not suprised to see more false and/or misleading information coming from the anti-healthcare side?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennischamp View Post
    The government will have to expand this program, yes, but where will it get the funds it needs? Will it have to increase the deficit we are already experiencing? I know healthcare is high on the government's priority list, I would just like to know if this will hurt the country's financial state significantly or not.

    There are facts that show that this Democratic proposal will in fact hurt our country's economy.
    An additional concern with the Democratic Health Care proposal has to do with small businesses. The board of directors for the National Business Association has made it a goal to ensure that small businesses and the self employed are provided access to health care at a reasonable cost without endangering business growth or job creation. However, the Democrat’s proposed bill will create massive government bureaucracy, will burden small businesses, and will threaten choice options. With high levels of unemployment, increased taxation on small businesses to create health care reform, will actually cause further harm to our economy. This bill imposes a new 5.4% federal income surtax on many individuals and small businesses.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Who the hell are these people? Something is fishy about this whole thread.
    Muhahaha. Actually, like the other person said, some of us are doing this for an English class. We go to the University of Miami. I thought we seemed suspicious with our giant blocks of text.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by kac11 View Post
    There are facts that show that this Democratic proposal will in fact hurt our country's economy.
    An additional concern with the Democratic Health Care proposal has to do with small businesses. The board of directors for the National Business Association has made it a goal to ensure that small businesses and the self employed are provided access to health care at a reasonable cost without endangering business growth or job creation. However, the Democrat’s proposed bill will create massive government bureaucracy, will burden small businesses, and will threaten choice options. With high levels of unemployment, increased taxation on small businesses to create health care reform, will actually cause further harm to our economy. This bill imposes a new 5.4% federal income surtax on many individuals and small businesses.
    If there are facts that show the Democratic plan/proposal will in fact hurt our economy, please present them.

    As a small business owner, I am well aware of foolish government regulations and burdens placed on the small business owner. However, I see no burdensome issues with the Democratic healthcare reform proposals on small businesses. For most small businesses, there will be no change at all except their employees will have healthcare. As a small business owner, improving the health of my work force is a good thing! Healthier employees are better workers.

  17. #37
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeciliaStelzer View Post
    Muhahaha. Actually, like the other person said, some of us are doing this for an English class. We go to the University of Miami. I thought we seemed suspicious with our giant blocks of text.
    That's OK, I understand now. I thought it could be some astroturf campaign.

  18. #38
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tennischamp View Post
    The government will have to expand this program, yes, but where will it get the funds it needs? Will it have to increase the deficit we are already experiencing? I know healthcare is high on the government's priority list, I would just like to know if this will hurt the country's financial state significantly or not.
    The Congressional Budget Office reported that it will actually reduce the deficit. The money comes from premiums, just like private health care insurance.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by joepistole View Post
    For most small businesses, there will be no change at all except their employees will have healthcare.
    The Republicans in the House who spoke on C-span and opponents of the House bill in general kept talking about the loss of freedom from the mandate on small businesses to buy insurance for their employees.

    What they did not say is that company's with payrolls below a half million dollars per year are exempt from this mandate. Presumably the owners profits are not part of payroll in a situation like a medical practice. A company that has a half million dollar payroll is larger than what I usually think of when I think of small business.

    Maybe they should raise the mandate level to a five million per year payroll so the larger companies that are also too small to cope well with the mandate also are released from the mandate.

    I am ambivalent and don't really like the approach taken. It is just too complicated and solves too little at too high of a price.

  20. #40
    Registered Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by joepistole View Post
    ... I agree with you that taxes on the middle class are exorbitant and job pressures are mounting. However, that does not mean that health insurance and healthcare costs should not be controlled and the healthcare system improved and more competitive, else healthcare will become a thing of the past for middle class Americans as it will become unafforable. Additionally, government will be forced to default on its already existing healthcare commitments (see Business Roundtable study).

    Healthcare costs today are high and growing because of all the special interest regulation forced on healthcare consumers by the healthcare industry. It is high past time for more competition in the healthcare industry that favors the working stiff and his family.
    Couldn't the above argument be used for virtually every aspect of human life in America? Housing, food, utilities, car for getting to work, furniture for the home, clothing, ..., even entertainment?

    With the emphasis on healthcare, aren't we leaping happily onto the slippery slope of socialism (or fascism or communism or whatever the fuck you wish to call taxing the shit out of the rich in order to provide for the poor)?

    Let's not get hung up on terminology. If it ain't socialism, then call it whatever you wish to call it. But is it a slippery slope into something like "Brave New World" where the gov provides happy pills and the sex is simply for the asking?

    Take one of the sentences above and change a few words:

    "However, that does not mean that (food and housing) costs should not be controlled and the (food and housing) system improved and more competitive, else (food and housing) will become a thing of the past for middle class Americans as it will become unafforable."

    And we could do the same for any of the essentials for human living, coudln't we? The large and looming slippery slope towards ...ahh, everything free (or damned cheap) for everyone and anyone? ...all of it paid for by taxing the shit outta' the wealthy and using it to provide for the poorer people?

    Interestingly, wouldn't y'all say that food and shelter is far, far more important than healthcare? So why ain't y'all fighting for "affordable food and shelter" ...paid for by taxing the shit outta' the rich?

    Baron Max

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