Israel & Palestine (v2)

[hypewaders]

Israel & Palestine Volume 2

a continuation of Israel & Palestine (original thread)


Reference Links

If you would like to contribute links for general reference here, please ask a moderator. PM Hypewaders

Israel:

B'Tselem:Israeli human rights group

Ha'aretz: left leaning newspaper chronicling Israeli POV

Zochrot [Remembering]: To educate the Nakba deniers

ICAHD: Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Machsom watch: tracking abuse at the checkpoints

Shministim: Israeli teenagers who refuse to join the IDF

Ometz LeSarev [Courage to Refuse]: IDF refuseniks

ibn Ezra: blog of Joseph Dana from Israel, he is also part of the Ta'ayush movement for Arab-Israeli partnership


Palestine:

Maan News Agency: the local news source for most Palestinians

The Palestine Chronicle: leading online magazine/blog/newspaper for Palestinian issues

Palestine Remembered: Keeping alive the Palestinian nation

Bi'lin: a Palestinian village, center of the nonviolent resistance

Raising Yousuf and Noor: a mother from Gaza [although technically she is American]


USA:

Tikun Olam -essays on politics, culture and ideas about Israeli-Arab peace

Electronic Intifada -news, commentary, analysis, reference materials from a Palestinian perspective

Jewish Voice for Peace -news, commentary from peace activists inspired by Jewish tradition

Jews sans frontieres -An Anti-Zionist blog browsing the media

Mondoweiss -American foreign policy in the Middle East from a progressive Jewish perspective

Ta'anit Tzedek - Jewish Fast For Gaza

Lawrence of Cyberia: American activist Diane Mason

Just World News: by Helen Cobban

Israel: Balancing Demographics in the Jewish State -Migration Information Source


U.K.

"Chatham House" (Royal Institute of International Affairs)

On The Palestinian Refugee Issue:

Past as Prelude?
A Palestinian Perspective
An Israeli Perspective
A Regional Perspective

Australia:

Antony Loewenstein -Sydney-based journalist/author blog


Other:

The Goldstone Report (large .pdf) -UN Human Rights Council, concerning the 2008-2009 Gaza War

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Some tired retired &or retarded threads about Israel/Palestine

News from Gaza; News from Gaza 2; Foreign Opinions on Israel; Is Israel in the Wrong?; A Short History; The 2 State Solution; 1 State; Does Israel Target Civilians?; "Concentration Camp"; Hummus War; Shebaa Farms; Right of Return; American Assistance to Israel; "Stolen Land"?;

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OP /Thread Notes:

Formerly titled The Promised Thread, the objectives here include accommodation of those who tire of the proliferation of threads on the subject, and better service and encouragement to those who have been disappointed in the curtailment and disruption of discussion and debate surrounding Israeli/Palestinian issues.


The format of the long promised/threatened thread will be intended to follow the same pattern as would any redirection of following discussions. I hope that the most recent Israel/Palestine events may be discussed briefly in a catch-all thread, until discussion (as is typically the case) turns to revisiting an underlying issue. At that point, I (or another so-inclined fellow moderator) may direct us all to a more appropriate thread in special, well-agreed cases.


In addition to your patience with the redirection of new threads and posts, I would ask members to scrupulously avoid even the appearance of hateful posts on this general subject. It's a blurry line between being provocative and contributing to the derailment of a discussion- so the success of this initiative will also require redoubled attention to avoiding offense, by giving that fuzzy line a wide berth.

I'm hoping to devote particular attention as a moderator to an area of discussion that is particularly prone to getting out of hand, and I'm hoping that with some attention to continuity of discussion, we'll create clearer paths to understanding for all sides. I have no desire to implement anything as a moderator that I would find unacceptable as a member. As a member, I am interested in seeing if less tangle of Israel/Palestine threads, along with more respectful debate, may offer something more stimulating and worthwhile here.

Salaam and Shalom.

-hypewaders

[hypewaders]

This thread is open for discussion of any interesting political subject pertaining to Israel & Palestine.

[S.A.M.]

This thread is open for discussion of any interesting political subject pertaining to Israel & Palestine.

How about Amira Hass [Israeli journalist who reports from Gaza] and her recent interview where she talks about Israel, Palestine and perceptions of occupation?

Excerpts:

Amy Goodman: Those are the words [in the New York Times] of Robert Bernstein, criticizing his own group, Human Rights Watch. Your response, Amira Hass?

AMIRA HASS: It’s very Orwellian, very Orwellian. It’s Israel which attacks the Palestinians. I mean, I read the article. The word “occupation” does not appear there even one time. He says that Israel is a democracy of seven-million-point-something Israeli citizens. He forgets four million Palestinians, who have to be registered in the Israeli population registry in order to exist. All the Palestinians are registered. He forgot the four million. So what kind of democracy it is, where four million who are in the Israeli Ministry of Interior have to be registered and Israel decides if they are—if they exist? How can you call it a democracy, when half of—when one-third, not to mention the one million Israeli Palestinians, don’t have rights, the same rights? What kind of democracy it is? It is really twisting all facts around. I was surprised to read this article, because it very much sounded—much of it sounded like propaganda of Israeli officials. Parts of it, not all.

… We know that attacks on democracy cannot—and on rights, do not only happen in the closed societies, in the unopen societies. And we also have learned that we should come with more demands to societies which claim to be democratic.

Every American Jew has more rights in Israel, potentially has more rights in Israel, than any Palestinian who was born there, who lives there, or who was born to Palestinians who were expelled. Every American Jew. I mean, this gives—this gives an obligation to Human Rights Watch to monitor Israel. I mean, there are no Americans who have a potential right to become automatically Saudi citizens or Chinese, or I don’t know what. Only Israel. So you have an obligation to monitor in what—to what extent it protects or abides by internationally accepted obligations and human rights. So these things are completely forgotten, and many more. I mean, it’s—factually, I mean, there are many things to argue with him, I think, and also value-wise many things to argue. And maybe—I’m sure that people will answer.

… this discrepancy, this Israeli control over every step of Palestinian life, still goes on, and it’s even worse. And the world doesn’t know. People do not associate now the Israeli regime with the terrible restrictions on freedom of movement, like it was in South Africa. Everybody knew during South Africa, during apartheid, that there is pass system. Now people do not know about. I was asked by a very nice Jewish woman, close to Peace Now—she asked me, “Are there any Palestinian journalists doing like what you are doing, living in Israel and reporting about Israel?” I said, “They wish they could, but Israel would not allow them even to go and cover a press conference in Jerusalem, let alone live in Israel.” We mean Palestinians who are residents of the West Bank or Gaza. She was surprised. So people do not grasp the extent of the restrictions of movement, which is the worst of all. I mean, it completely shrinks people’s life, not to mention how Gaza is a huge, how would I say, detention camp for one million and a half people who could not move more than thirty kilometers or forty kilometers in the past ten years or twelve years.

Full interview: link

[otheadp]

Hype, in your OP you haven't included a single pro-Israel link. In fact you included only extreme-left organizations under your "Israel" heading. Doubleyou tee eff?

[CheskiChips]

Hype, in your OP you haven't included a single pro-Israel link. In fact you included only extreme-left organizations under your "Israel" heading. Doubleyou tee eff?

It's representative of the internet's distribution of pro and anti Israel websites. Which is fortunately unrepresentative of actual popular opinion.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Water. An Amnesty International report says that Israel is denying Palestinians access to water.
I don't find this report particularly interesting as water access has been an issue for many years and it makes it look as if it is a 'new' problem when expansionism has always been related to control of this precious resource.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8327188.stm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...water-20091027

Israel has denied the reports accuracy.

[fedr808]

Why does it have to be Israel versus Palestine?

Were all humans, and the fact is that violence while it may be in our nature, is not our first instinct, it is maybe number 40 on the list. Our first instinct is to come together.

A girl in my school has a T-shirt that said "arms are for hugs"

It shouldnt be Israel vs. Palestine, or Palestine vs. Israel, it should be Israel and Palestine, or Palestine and Israel.

[otheadp]

Why does it have to be Israel versus Palestine?

Were all humans, and the fact is that violence while it may be in our nature, is not our first instinct, it is maybe number 40 on the list. Our first instinct is to come together.

A girl in my school has a T-shirt that said "arms are for hugs"

It shouldnt be Israel vs. Palestine, or Palestine vs. Israel, it should be Israel and Palestine, or Palestine and Israel.

Spoken like a typical Israeli --- yearning for peace, hoping it'll catch on on the other side, the side that is bloodthirsty on the grassroots level, unfortunately.

As for the NGO reports, they aren't worth the paper on which they're printed.

[hypewaders]

Hype, in your OP you haven't included a single pro-Israel link. In fact you included only extreme-left organizations under your "Israel" heading. Doubleyou tee eff?

Reference Links

If you would like to contribute links for general reference here, please ask a moderator. PM Hypewaders

It's representative of the internet's distribution of pro and anti Israel websites. Which is fortunately unrepresentative of actual popular opinion.

How would you characterize actual popular opinion regarding Israel, český?

[S.A.M.]

Spoken like a typical Israeli --- yearning for peace, hoping it'll catch on on the other side, the side that is bloodthirsty on the grassroots level, unfortunately.

The typical Israeli that supported the Gaza massacre, occupies Palestine, is a recent immigrant to a Jewish state in Palestine and who ignores the fact that for a Palestinian to exist, he/she must be registered with Israel but is not a citizen and does not have the same rights as an American Jew in Israel?

[pjdude1219]

Spoken like a typical Israeli --- yearning for peace, hoping it'll catch on on the other side, the side that is bloodthirsty on the grassroots level, unfortunately.

As for the NGO reports, they aren't worth the paper on which they're printed.

why because they show what you would rather keep hidden?

If Israelis want peace why aren't they willing to do the things required for peace?

[mike47]

My position is very clear : Palestinians should have their own country with their own rules, laws, police and armed forces . Israel has the support of the US and NATO countries because the Jewish lobby is very strong there .
Those who say the Muslim Palestinians are dangerous I remind them that Hitler and Mussolini were both Christinians ......etc .

[spidergoat]

Palestinians should have their own country with their own rules, laws, police and armed forces.

That is also my position, and the position of most Israel supporters.

[StrawDog]

Why does it have to be Israel versus Palestine?

Were all humans, and the fact is that violence while it may be in our nature, is not our first instinct, it is maybe number 40 on the list. Our first instinct is to come together.

A girl in my school has a T-shirt that said "arms are for hugs"

It shouldnt be Israel vs. Palestine, or Palestine vs. Israel, it should be Israel and Palestine, or Palestine and Israel.

I like your sentiment Fed. I am hopeful that one day the leaders of Israel/Palestine may unite as - "we". Then we will surely see a truly great nation, as both Israel and Palestine have the potential to be.
Shalom.

[pjdude1219]

That is also my position, and the position of most Israel supporters.

and yet you refuse to be willing to support the required actions to bring it to be. You cannot treat a people as a fairy tale if you want peace with them.

[fedr808]

Spoken like a typical Israeli --- yearning for peace, hoping it'll catch on on the other side, the side that is bloodthirsty on the grassroots level, unfortunately.

As for the NGO reports, they aren't worth the paper on which they're printed.

Well my first point is that im not Israeli.

I like the idea of peace not just for the fact that we will all like each other. But that we all will work together. Working seperately, we went from wooden gliders to stealth fighters and boeing 747's in about 100 years. Imagine, we couldve done that in 25 if the whole world had been working together.

We could advance so much more rapidly if we sat our asses down, threw out our differences, and worked together.

[fedr808]

why because they show what you would rather keep hidden?

If Israelis want peace why aren't they willing to do the things required for peace?

Because of the fact that they believe that the instant they let down their guard the Palestinians will kill them all.

And the Palestinians believe that the moment they let down their guard Israel will kill them all.

Hell, we even believe it.

There wont be peace until they both realize that they both want security, peace, and prosperity.

[hypewaders]

fedr8o8: "There wont be peace until they both realize that they both want security, peace, and prosperity."

The universal desire for security, peace, and prosperity is simple to understand. The greater obstacle to peace and progress there is Israeli apartheid. Greater inter-ethnic understanding in the Levant cannot flourish until that peculiar institution comes to an end.

[fedr808]

fedr8o8: "There wont be peace until they both realize that they both want security, peace, and prosperity."

The universal desire for security, peace, and prosperity is simple to understand. The greater obstacle to peace and progress there is Israeli apartheid. Greater inter-ethnic understanding in the Levant cannot flourish until that peculiar institution comes to an end.

Your right. The fact is that they see each other as totally alien and believe firmly that the other side wants to destroy them.

Its like the stalemate of the cold war, it took 4 decades for the sides to figure out that:

russia will only launch nukes for the defense

US will only launch nukes for the defense.

Realizing you have a problem is the first step to a solution.

[spidergoat]

and yet you refuse to be willing to support the required actions to bring it to be. You cannot treat a people as a fairy tale if you want peace with them.

What actions would that be?