Meaning of the universe

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Cyperium, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    For the universe to have any meaning at all by itself, it must be aware, or something must be aware of it.

    The closest thing we know of is ourselves, we are aware of the universe, therefor from what we know, we are the meaning of the universe.

    How far that meaning stretches no one knows, are we meant to take over the universe? Building civilisations on every planet? Or does it only stretch to our own solar system? Perhaps the earth is doomed and the meaning only stretches to that day - if we can't escape or avoid it?

    Whatever the answer to those questions are, I am convinced that we are the meaning of the universe as far as we know (there could be other civilisations that we don't know about that also are aware of themselves and the universe).

    The meaning of the universe then stretches as far as we allow it to, if there are things in the universe we don't know of that doesn't have meaning in itself (that it might cause something to something that is aware, if it is necessary for us, or have some other consequence on awareness) then those things have no meaning if it have no knowledge of existence.

    I argue that knowing about its own existence (my personal definition of self-awareness) is cause for meaning, and that there cannot be any other meaning than the meaning of those who knows about theirselves).

    It might seem egocentric and it probably is, but that doesn't mean that it isn't true. There are alot of beautiful things out there, but if no one sees it then what is the point?
     
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  3. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    are you aware?

    check!

    sounds like giving "life" a meaning?!?!?

    enjoy the ride

    but we be 'life' that can do, by choice

    makes sense, we teach our kids that lesson, quick!

    WOW>....

    if you keep that up some may ask what language you speak.

    but i often ask the same ideology with a simple question;

    Is existence defining itself?

    the knowledge is evolving and transcends time (with words)

    what would be that pinnacle?

    could it be that 'life comprehends its existence'?

    in which IT can create life and live in its contributions...........


    but you are seeing it

    and you are a life within existence with the ability to choose......


    'get er done'


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  5. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    to the mods; please be nice on this one


    folks, the reason i hammer the 2nd law of thermo is because that 'progression' or 'intent' of living structures cannot be defined causally within the physics of walking the planck.... (hence this thread was born observing the scope of purpose)

    the math has incorporated an paradigm of understanding based on the 2nd (reductionary)

    the reason i posted this is to share that the principle philosophy describing life and living structures will and must conform to nature and the physics to describe it.

    bridging this gap between nature, philosophy and theology can be achieved by simply observing in a different light.

    My opinion
     
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  7. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, but I was focusing on the meaning of the universe, even though having meaning to the universe might give a sense of meaning to oneself too - but be aware that this kind of meaning is only meaningful if we as a consequence of giving meaning to the universe gives meaning to something that is aware. Meaning is interchangable that way; it's all love really.



    I do, most of the time.

    It does make sense, what we do to others is bringing the meaning we have to them. We share our meaning to others.



    I speak swedish, so now they don't have to

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    In a sense yes, but only as a part of a higher meaning. If there are no higher meaning than us, then our meaning is lost too (since we don't live forever).

    Yes, knowledge transcends ourselves, the knowledge we give to others.

    I don't know what you mean by 'pinnacle'. I could look it up, but I guess I'm giving you a chance to share some of your meaning

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    That would count as a higher existence, but even that needs a even higher existence or that meaning would be lost too. If not life is forever in some way, but the convention is that what lives here on earth eventually dies, even species are extinct, this is what I meant that our meaning that we give to the universe only stretches to the point that we survive. Could be that we inhabit every corner of the universe, and this way lives as long as the universe, but then the universe would have to exist forever or that meaning would be lost too, then there would have to be a even higher existence than the universe in order for us to have meaning.




    I'm arguing that lower existence (us) could give meaning to a higher (the universe), but only if a even higher (God? A higher neverending existence?) could give meaning to a lower (us and the universe). Of course, if the universe couldn't conceive of that meaning, it wouldn't be meaningful to it.
     
  8. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    passing the torch to the next generation.

    knowledge conveyed by the choice of YOU and you live longer in that 'contribution' to existence

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    but we can if the teachings (contributions we give, live into the lives of others) If that knowledge is good (true) like what darwin shared has offered him life in our minds, learning and collective understanding; Darwin: WON!

    ahh... so you see it but observing the life of it (the contribution of your energy, by choice to add to the 'good') is a little different to ya....?!?!?

    Perhaps?
    the final principle foundation (philosophical ideology) that is grounded in absolute truth (concepts of reality into words; perfected by math/evidence/nature)


    think on it a bit and how lives come and go but knowledge offers life to what was and could be.

    To understand, then a life can impose to many areas of life and live in them contributions; knowing it and how it works, that is pure to nature; then the extinctions can be avoided by choice.

    is what the intent has always been of learning; to live
    perhaps god is existence.

    perhaps "all mass, all energy and all time" as a whole; the ONE (existence itself)

    then 'we the people' are contributing to the higher; existence itself in service; knowingly or unknowingly; we are ONE within existence

    I wrote this a long time ago:

    Happiness is knowing once we are, we are ONE.
     
  9. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    Are you going to actually support this claim at some time?
    I ask simply because everything that follows this fails to do so.

    In any case, I think your premiss here is flawed;in short I say: not necessarily.
    The problem here is twofold: firstly, you're assuming that there must be "meaning". Secondly, you're contingently assuming that whatever meaning there may be, is of an objective nature...


    ... just curious. I'm sure Bishadi will keep you busy on this one...

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  10. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Other than the 'having meaning', it isn't out of bounds to say that the universe is looking at itself, seeing that we are composed of some of its parts and doing the looking.
     
  11. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    Knowing about your self…

    You can see something on the ground and think it as a piece of shit. Some predator animal can see the same thing and consider it as traces of a pray. This animal is also aware of the fact that there is a concept called “hunger”. It may not be sounding in its head as it does in our heads; or may not have a powerful romantic literature behind this knowledge, yet it has some meaning: The pray must be found; and it must be done before sunset (or sunrise). This animal should also know the other members of the pack, especially if it lives among social animals, such as lions or wolves. It must be aware of its role and capabilities during the hunting campaign. Many of them require certain time of learning.

    This animal can not speculate anything about cellular scale creatures or movements of heavenly bodies; because these are beyond its capabilities as well as its interest. However, it still knows itself, is aware of its own existence, although wider universe and many other happenings do not give any special credit to this existence. Planets move, galaxies get apart from each other. One distant life form on the other side of the planet earth makes its own existential movement without knowing or depending on perspective or even existence of this animal. Universe consists of many smaller activities and the search for “one governing rule, meaning or body for all” makes sense in local activities. For instance: “All cell based life depends on DNA code”. This does not make any sense, neither a rule, for the gravitational orbits of stars, or tectonic plate movements.

    We, humans give meaning to everything including to the universe. We know that the size, the way it exist, the forces and fortune of the very same universe have completely shifted throughout the last century. That’s why we give the benefit of doubt that it would completely change again. We understood that there are great varieties of mechanisms in this universe, as we understood that there are many others we simply do not know. Atoms and DNA have been doing what they have been doing for billions of years before humans give them some meanings. Before we start to call ourselves as the “meaning of the universe”; or “life’s comprehension of its own existence”, we should be doing much more than what we are doing in our humanly constructed laboratories, either material or mental ones.

    Universe allows some sort of existence type, which is known as life, and this existence finds its meaning in the evolution of explosion-happy ape brains: Unlikely. We are not capable of giving a meaning to our own human universe, our individual and collective thinking system, let alone the universe. We can populate thousands of planets all over the galaxy in the future, but that does not mean that we are the meaning of the universe; just as today we can colonize the whole planet, but we are far from being the meaning of life or the planet in general. The ability of conceiving and knowing the existence of anything is useful tool for survival. If we do it better via producing and comparing meanings of/for things, so we will keep doing it, within the limits of our own universe.
     
  12. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    I agree.

    Needless to say, it's obvious that the central concern in the OP is "meaning", which is clearly the contentious issue here...
     
  13. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    as the evolution continues


    "is existence defining itself?"


    anyone remember the old thread?


    thx

    (for allowing the evolution to continue)

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    If anyone was to ask directly what is 'the meaning of life'........ then the only real answer to me is: to continue.

    kind of opposite of the 2nd but it is that 'intent' (of life) that reveals the "last word" (that final ToE)


    (it all must come together (3 branches of knowledge) within 'the universe' someday)
     
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Incorrect. Meaning is the relationship of two or more variables. All the relationships in the universe exist whether there is something aware of them or not.
     
  15. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Bishadi:
    Ok, I get it

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    thank you.

    I do see what you mean, was it the egyptians that thought that living forever is to be remembered? Something in the likeness of that I think.

    Perhaps everything we contribute to reality is a part of us, and a part of us will move on through that. I'm just saying perhaps, like an artist shares a bit of his soul through his paintings.


    Yes, I have the thought that perhaps existing is being a part of existence itself, and that we are one with existence in some manner.

    glaucon:
    I know, I was (and am) going to but it would be too cluttered if I did it in the OP, better to see where it is going first.

    I am assuming there are meaning, otherwise this thread would be pointless. We do feel meaning subjectively and I don't see why we wouldn't believe that there is meaning. Sometimes we get glimpses of higher meanings too, at least I do, as such perhaps some people that haven't had these glimpses might have a harder time believing in objective meaning. But meaning is also assumed for the sake of the thread, it's easier to find out how something works if you assume that it exists in the first place. And what's the harm in that? The worst that can happen is that you might find that it doesn't exist and that would perhaps give a sense of disappointment. But then again, I don't think you could ever prove that it doesn't exist so why not believe in it?

    baftan:
    Yes there are local meanings, concerning different animals differently, but there would be no real 'meaning' to them if they weren't aware obviously. Part of meaning being meaningful to anything (which is cause for pleasure/pain/hunger/etc.) is being aware of it, meaning could arise as a feeling, that something feels meaningful even if you don't understand it, but sometimes understanding is required for the meaning of something to be felt, so I don't say that as long as you are aware everything instantly has meaning, some things have that kind of meaning, but many things require that you understand why it is meaningful.

    Sometimes I have the experience of feeling that something has meaning and upon investigation finding that it actually has meaning.

    Yes, some things stay the same though, some things never looses their meanings, axioms that humans have known about forever, one axiom is that you feel that you exist and thus you exist. There can be no counter argument, there are no illusion to existing. If you feel that you exist, then you do.

    I'm not saying that we are the only meaning of life, of course anything that is aware in some sense shares this meaning. I was talking about the meaning of the universe, that if we weren't aware then the universe could do whatever it wanted and it wouldn't matter to anything. Sure all sorts of things would happen but it just wouldn't matter if it didn't happen to anything aware. What difference would it make if the universe did one thing instead of another, if no one was there to see it? It could just do its life span and it just wouldn't matter.

    But here is the point: It does matter. Because we are aware to see it. Because it happens to something aware of it.

    However this is just a part of the meaning. In order for the meaning to be complete we would have to live forever, otherwise we would be just as unimportant as anything that wasn't aware.

    Crunchy Cat:
    But this wasn't the kind of meaning that I meant. It should be clear to you that I talked about "importance of", rather than "relationship to".

    Words have different meanings sometimes, that's why you have to look at it in context. If you disagree with me, read it again, you will clearly see that this was the kind of meaning that I meant.

    In what means would any of this be of any importance if nothing were aware of it? The importance of things and appreciation for things only arises in aware beings.

    Awareness and life is only important in a grander scale if it is forever in some way.
     
  16. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    Coolio.


    Fair enough. But note your usage of the qualifier "feel". Simply because we 'fee' something to be the case, or even simply "believe" something to be the case, doesn't mean that it is. I guess what I'm critiquing is a sense of 'innate', or 'objective' meaning (which is what I thought you were getting at in your OP...).[/QUOTE]

    Ah. See, now here we are.
    Myself, I have no idea what you mean when you say "higher meaning".
    And there's that nasty "objective" qualifier...

    Well, how about because it's not reasonable to opt to assert something simply because one cannot currently 'prove' (or disprove) it?
    Or are you going to disagree entirely with the Scientific Method?



    Despite all my points here, I do of course recognize what you're 'getting at'.
    Regardless of the particular epistemological nature we see "meaning" as enjoying, we do in fact constantly make use of the notion.

    (Mind you, from my POV, this notion is entirely determined by us; it is we who determine what is meant...)

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  17. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Here's to you glaucon:

    It's very hard to prove that there is objective meaning. I mean, perhaps there isn't a proof of it available to us. It could exist anyway.

    IF it does exist, it wouldn't matter to the scientific method! It would matter to me and that is why I believe it. However, there is a thought experiment that, as far as I know, I came up with:

    In a different state of mind, we can see more meaning, personally I have found meanings in all kind of things when feeling inspired, but when feeling less inspired I can't find that meaning anymore. Even if I remembered why it had meaning I wouldn't perceive it as meaningful the same way I did when I felt inspired and meaning is in some manner 'alive' and not feeling inspired wouldn't have me see that meaning since I would only have the memory of it, and it can never reproduce that same meaning indefinetly, like it did when I was inspired.

    I do know that when I find this meaning while being inspired it is obvious to me that it does have meaning. Perhaps it would be very difficult to explain that meaning to anyone that isn't inspired even while experiencing it, if there is no interest then there is little understanding to be made.

    This is the thought experiment; as we can see meaning in things while feeling inspired, or just happy

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    then the meaning must be there at all times, we are just not looking at it the right way. Someone might exist that always knows that there is meaning, someone that is enlightened so to speak, if he see meaning and it is obvious to him that it has meaning then there must be meaning to it even if any ordinary person doesn't see it. Of course it can't be scientifically proven, but these things aren't of scientific nature. Everything that exists doesn't have to be of scientific nature.

    Of course, if we live forever then that would be an objective meaning. Then the meaning would be objective anyway, cause then something would have happened in order to give meaning to us (live forever) and that would be meaningful objectively, I think.

    Higher meaning is in my view when something happens that seems to have little or no meaning, but have a higher meaning when viewed from higher grounds. Ants seem to run around randomly but when looking at each one then each one has a higher meaning than we thought. Higher meaning for the sake of this thread is either something that is meaning is either that which eventually gives us the objective meaning that you reffered to, or something that has more meaning than we use to observe.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  18. Bishadi Banned Banned

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    could that meaning being sought by mankind:

    "the purpose of life?"
     
  19. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    The opening statement appeared to be asking an objective question. The interpretation of meaning being "relationship to" corresponds to an objective question where "importance of" corresponds to a subjective question.

    "Important" is utterly subjective. The very concept has no correspondence to anything outside of emotional thought.

    Only in the subjectivity of one's own mind.
     
  20. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    -=-

    Living forever provides no more objective meaning than living for 60 years.
     
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  21. glaucon tending tangentially Registered Senior Member

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    No.
     
  22. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    IMHO the universe has no inherent meaning in and of itself. Any meaning given is just that, "given".

    But who is to say people arent allowed to make up their own meanings for the universe? Whatever makes you happy.
     
  23. thinking Banned Banned

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