God...who believes?

**Norsefire** · 08-04-09, 05:14 PM

If gods do not exist, gods will exist in the future.

**Lori_7** · 08-04-09, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by glaucon

So, you're saying you don't believe then.

I didn't see this, and I don't understand what what you mean.

**~~mike47~~** · 08-04-09, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

If gods do not exist, gods will exist in the future.

Is life that simple ?.....

.

**swarm** · 08-04-09, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

i have no choice.

Then you are merely a puppet.

**glaucon** · 08-04-09, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

I didn't see this, and I don't understand what what you mean.

You said you have no choice.

I said:

Originally Posted by glaucon

So, you're saying you don't believe then.

Now you've got me confused...

Are you saying that you don't understand how your saying that you have no choice means that you don't believe??

**Lori_7** · 08-05-09, 05:35 AM

Yeah. After what I've been through I'd have to be out of my fucking mind not to believe. I'd have to be brain dead.

**Cellar_Door** · 08-05-09, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Enmos

I think MZ meant supernatural gods.

I, for one, don't believe in anything supernatural. If it's possible to experience, and thus evidence, something supernatural then it isn't supernatural after all.
To experience or measure anything it needs to be part of reality.

That is, if you believe that this is all there is and that we have full knowledge of the universe.
Lightning and rainbows were once considered to be supernatural/divine because they couldn't be measured or explained with the tools and knowledge we then possessed. It's not unlikely that we will make other great discoveries in the future. Not concerning earthly ghoulies, ghosties and holy spirits, which God knows we've had enough time to find a scrap of evidence for, but about worlds and beings that as yet remain undiscovered. A loaded question, such as the one the OP asks, requires us to come down to separation and semantics. Although for the most part I completely agree with you.

**glaucon** · 08-05-09, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

Yeah. After what I've been through I'd have to be out of my fucking mind not to believe. I'd have to be brain dead.

Alas, you're wrong. Belief necessarily implies election.
If you have no choice, then you cannot believe.

**Lori_7** · 08-05-09, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by glaucon

Alas, you're wrong. Belief necessarily implies election.
If you have no choice, then you cannot believe.

do you believe there's such a thing as gravity if a brick falls on your head?

**Carcano** · 08-05-09, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

do you believe there's such a thing as gravity if a brick falls on your head?

Glaucon is stating that belief is different than knowledge.

Knowledge is provable...belief is not, and is therefore a choice.

Belief is just an idea held usually because its enjoyable or consoling.

Your 'belief in God' should really be called 'knowledge of God' if you have some real perceptual experience.

**glaucon** · 08-05-09, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Carcano

Glaucon is stating that belief is different then knowledge.

Knowledge is provable...belief is not, and is therefore a choice.

Belief is just an idea held usually because its enjoyable or consoling.

Your 'belief in God' should really be called 'knowledge of God' if you have some real perceptual experience.

Thank you my good man.
I honestly didn't think I'd have to spell it out....

**Lori_7** · 08-05-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Carcano

Glaucon is stating that belief is different then knowledge.

Knowledge is provable...belief is not, and is therefore a choice.

Belief is just an idea held usually because its enjoyable or consoling.

Your 'belief in God' should really be called 'knowledge of God' if you have some real perceptual experience.

oh, well knowledge of god it is then. thank you. can you believe something because you have knowledge of it?

**glaucon** · 08-05-09, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

thank you. can you believe something because you have knowledge of it?

No.

**Carcano** · 08-05-09, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

can you believe something because you have knowledge of it?

No, but you can know something because you have experience of it.

However...one has to be careful about evaluating experience.

People on drugs for example will swear up and down that they experience such and such about reality...only to have it all evaporate when the drug wears off.

**Enmos** · 08-05-09, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by Cellar_Door

That is, if you believe that this is all there is and that we have full knowledge of the universe.
Lightning and rainbows were once considered to be supernatural/divine because they couldn't be measured or explained with the tools and knowledge we then possessed. It's not unlikely that we will make other great discoveries in the future. Not concerning earthly ghoulies, ghosties and holy spirits, which God knows we've had enough time to find a scrap of evidence for, but about worlds and beings that as yet remain undiscovered. A loaded question, such as the one the OP asks, requires us to come down to separation and semantics. Although for the most part I completely agree with you.

You completely agree with me. You said:

Lightning and rainbows were once considered to be supernatural/divine because they couldn't be measured or explained with the tools and knowledge we then possessed.

See ? They were once considered (i.e. believed to be) supernatural, and it turned out they are not.

Nothing is supernatural, everything is natural. Whether we can or can't measure or understand something has no bearing on reality at all.
Supernatural means 'above or beyond nature'. And it just so happens that nature encompasses all that exists anywhere and anytime.

**glaucon** · 08-05-09, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Carcano

No, but you can know something because you have experience of it.

Nicely said.

Originally Posted by Enmos

Nothing is supernatural, everything is natural. Whether we can or can't measure or understand something has no bearing on reality at all.
Supernatural means 'above or beyond nature'. And it just so happens that nature encompasses all that exists anywhere and anytime.

ditto

**jpappl** · 08-05-09, 04:13 PM

Lori,

knowledge of god it is then

Proof please.

**Lori_7** · 08-05-09, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by jpappl

Lori,

Proof please.

Call it up! I'm not going to give it to you.

Here we go again.

You guys talk sometimes like you want me to put god in an envelope and mail it to you, or post a pic of it. Its not like that.

**glaucon** · 08-05-09, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Lori_7

...
Its not like that.

What is it like ?

**Lori_7** · 08-05-09, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by glaucon

What is it like ?

Its personal. Something that's perceived. It takes place inside you, and it means something to you. I guess some people have wacky shit happen right off the bat, out of nowhere like angelic interventions and near death experiences and such, but for me it was a slow progression that I think I initialized by a sincere desire to know during a turning point. The first way that god showed himself to me or proved himself to me was when I understood the reason and the power of forgiveness.