What if the Invasion of Poland was postponed until 1941?

Discussion in 'History' started by halo07guy, Jul 5, 2009.

  1. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    What if Germany had postponed it's invasion of Poland until 1941? I personally think that the world would be a very different place. They would have had much more advanced technology and equipment then anyone else at the start of the war, and better trained troops and pilots to boot. If they went into full wartime production at the very onset, something they didn't do until 1945, they could easily have taken the CCCP.

    They could have had things like the Panther, ME262, Stg44, Type XXI U-boat, missles, night vision, and more available to them at the very onset of the war. They would have had two more years to advance their nuclear program, two more years to train troops and build up their army and navy. The Graf Zeppelin carrier and possibly more of that type would have most definitely been completed.

    What do you think would have happened?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    I read somewhere that the German General Staff had wanted to postpone the war until either 1941 or 42, but that Hitler was so impatient for war that he made the fatal error of striking too early...yet another of his mistakes...though TBH I don't really think it would have made much difference to the ultimate outcome--would Stalin have still been able to roll over Europe like he did if the attack on the USSR had come in 1943 instead of 1941? Because if we put back the schedule for WW2 by two years, D-Day wouldn't have taken place until ca 1946 or 47, and the war might conceivably lasted into the 1950's.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    It would not have mattered. Hitler was not a good leader. He made numerous mistakes. If he delayed invasion of Poland, he would have made other mistakes. His record is one full of mistakes. It is rarely ever one mistake that causes disaster, but rather a series of mistakes.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    His main error was the bloody-minded arrogance to believe that he knew more about fighting a war than the General Staff...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Yes, everyone else would have had two more years, but you have to take into account other things. Assuming the Japanese still attacked Pearl Harbor, then British, American, and possibly French forces would have been concentrated in the Pacific, leaving little opposition to Hitler in Europe. The USSR only really started gearing up for war once the Germans attacked Poland. A reason the USSR was going to invade Germany was because the Russians knew that the Germans would invade sooner or later. However, if Germany is given two more years technological advancement, that severely tilts the odds in their favor.
     
  9. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    Poland, Norway, Lowlands, France were pretty much ENIGMA Victories (Technologically speaking) which might have not been possible in 41'42'. Churchill was reading a lot of ENIGMA code post 41'(at the very least).
     
  10. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,955
    His megalomania grew worse as his use of methamphetamines grew worse. His drug addiction worked in our favor. Speed makes you irrational.
     
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    not really enigma was broken before the war ever started. The only problem with breaking it was the addition of another gear to the machine.
     
  12. tuberculatious Banned Banned

    Messages:
    987
    Hitler would still have been a fruitcake who didn't trust anyone.

    So same inevitable defeat.
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,910
    Hitler was the biggest error or fault in the Nazi war machine. His decision making grew progressively worse as time progressed. The technology lead (jet engines) was being closely followed by Great Britian and The United States. Additionally, the US was light years ahead of the Axis powers with the advent of nuclear weapons.

    There is no indication that if the invasion of Poland had been delayed that the Nazi's would have used that time wisely (e.g. building supplies of winterized equipment). And no one knows how the world, especially Russia, would have reacted to the development and deployment of winterized equipment.

    But one thing is certian, as time progressed Hitler's health and ability to organize and manage went down hill rapidly. So he and his Nazi's were doomed no matter what they did or did not do.
     
  14. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Um, no.
    The Panther was developed in response to the T-34, if Germany hadn't run into the T-34 in combat during Barbarossa they wouldn't have bothered to even start Panther.
    With regard to the Me 262, the Nazi hierarchy put a stop to the development of jet engines and aircraft in '38 or '39 (there's an accurate date in another thread) - it was something that was considered as not needed until it actually was needed. By which time it was too late.
    StG 44 came out of studies on engagement ranges - if the war started later those studies would be done later, and the introduction of StG/ MP 44 would have been later.
    Likewise the Type XXI and missiles were all driven by combat requirements - as counters to Allied equipment and measures, so again: later start to the war, later discovery of the need, later introduction.
     
  15. tuberculatious Banned Banned

    Messages:
    987
    They should have loaded a V2 missile with Hitler and aim it at liechtenstein.
     
  16. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    It might have been broken, but was not operationally decoded until 41', regularly.

    If is was, then there would have been a fight in Poland (contrary to common myth, did not lose because they had no tanks - they actually had better thanks). Poland, Lowlands, Norway and France were lighting fast because of Enigma not "the mighty German war machine".
     
  17. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    So they had a raving P-freak running Germany for 12 years? Well, that would certainly explain a few things...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,398
    Why Liechtenstein, particularly? Why not San Marino, Andorra et. al., if you're aiming at small states?
     
  19. chris4355 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,055
    Hitlers mistake was attacking Russia. The second it fought a two front war it was over. I don't think changing the date of the war would have made much of a difference on the outcome. They were already quite advanced before 1941 compared to their enemies.
     
  20. tuberculatious Banned Banned

    Messages:
    987
    Because there is only one Hitler.
     
  21. halo07guy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Yes, the Panther series of tanks were developed in response to the T-34. But the T-34 was introduced in 1940, giving the Germans at least a year to develop a response, longer if they operate the same way they did in real life, not invading the USSR until 1943.

    I concede that they wouldn't have the Stg44. However, you can't rule out the fact that on the whole, German weapons were superior to the Allies, and still would be. If the Germans had two more years to plan, things would be very different. Instead of rushing their plans as they did in real life, they could have slowly picked out the errors and problems in it, as well as developing the needed modifications for their equipment to carry out such plans. For example, the Battle of Britain was a defeat for them simply because their aircraft didn't have enough endurance to stay airborne over Britain if they wanted to return home. With two more years, they could have completed both of the Graf Zeppelin carriers they had planned and develop longer endurance aircraft. By 1941, they could have had an invasion fleet steaming across the English Channel. They also likely would have had jets. Maybe not the Me262, but they still had the He 280 by 1941 in real life. The tests of it against a Fw190 showed the jet clearly superior. The only reason they didn't produce it was because they expected a quick victory from Blitzkrieg.

    I'm assuming that the Japanese still attacked Pearl Harbor, British Pacific bases, and French colonies by 1940-1941, though. That would have diverted a significant portion of their ground, naval and air forces to the Pacific. This would have made it much easier for the Germans to steamroll over Europe, Britain, and Africa. That would have left them with only one front, the USSR. With minor peacekeeping forces in Europe, they could have devoted the majority of their forces to the Soviet Union.

    By the way, I'm thinking of this based off what NATO did during the Cold War. They never went to war, yes. But they developed systems to deal with the expected theaters of war and to counter their enemy's equipment if it did go hot. I'm assuming the same here. So yes, while it might seem rushed, the Panther could have entered production late-1941/early-1942 to counter the T-34.

    Also, I think you guys are overestimating the influence Hitler had over the armed forces. Yes, he did have command over them. But his Generals were by far the best in the world at that time, and he didn't do much to interfere until it was clear they were losing, itself being mainly because of a stupid mistake by Japanese. He only really started using drugs by the time the war was close to over. You have to remember that they came very close to winning, even with Hitler in command. And really the only other reason for their loss was because of a lack of foresight.
     
  22. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Not true: the Panther, as a response, wasn't required UNTIL T-34 was met in combat. T-34 was surprise to the Germans. (As was the KV-1).

    Individually yes. But as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all of its own. And we had the quantity.

    Nope, because the errors and requirements didn't show up UNTIL combat exposed the flaws.

    The Graf Zep has no relevance to longer-ranged aircraft.
    The Luftwaffe was developed as a TACTICAL airforce to support the army. Germany had no requirement for longer-ranged aircraft and no intention of developing them. UNTIL actual combat experience showed the deficiencies.

    And being sunk by the RN.

    Again, incorrect.
    Jet engines and the aircraft that used were them cancelled as not worth the effort. Just as the war started...
    And the Germans were surprised by the actual speed of victory, so they didn't quite expect it.

    Then maybe you should read more/ deeper.
    NATO developed systems to counter what was known of Soviet systems. And got quite a few nasty surprises when the Cold War ended...

    And he over-rode them MANY times... von Paulus didn't retreat because he was ordered not to (and therefore 6th Army was destroyed)... the Germans struck for Moscow on Hitler's orders, despite his generals telling him that was not a good idea... the StG/ MP 44 was put into service clandestinely because Hitler didn't like it... the Me 262 was put into service as a schnellbomber at Hitler's insistence, contrary to to everyone else's recommendation that it be used as a fighter... etc. etc.

    They started losing because (among other things) Hitler interfered.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  23. tommo8993 Registered Member

    Messages:
    8
    well the German navy was at the start of a redevelopment due to finish in 1947 when the war started Hitlers plans where to have the navy able to take on the UK and French fleets. this means they may of won the battle of the Atlantic thus severing the UK supply lines.
     

Share This Page