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Thread: Oldest Structure at Puma Punku- Bolivia

  1. #41
    Too bad, no one has found any (really) advanced tools in those places. Not even a sonic or water drill/saw, sonic screw driver or teleport machines left over from the construction - anywhere on this planet....

  2. #42
    Valued Senior Member sifreak21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmguru View Post
    Too bad, no one has found any (really) advanced tools in those places. Not even a sonic or water drill/saw, sonic screw driver or teleport machines left over from the construction - anywhere on this planet....
    as a moderator thoes comments are really not needed at all and dont contribute to the topic very unprofessional "the last part of the reply"

    as for the op and other replies i have seen the guy move massive blocks. sadly sorry to say but that means nothing.. the ruins were made on a hard surface but not a rock foundation rocky ground but not a foundation so that "man that can move everything" use a small rock under the block. that wont work in this situation

    another thing is that i dont believe that a line that smal and that percise cannot be made by a chisle and blunt force its the exact same depth the whole way across.. i want to see the greatest of stoneworkers using primitive tools recreate the same they cant use metal or any machine fabricated stone tools. remember it cant be diamond tiped.

    something everyone is over looking even if the above was true. lets assume it was done.. explain how the perfect circular holes were cut i say cut because they didnt have a drill.

    after all that its down to opinion but having qualified people saying that we couldnt even recreate that percision today says something.. i can gaurentee you we couldnt do it without using modern tools

    do i believe in life outside ours? yes imo its crazy not to think there is no single celled organism in the universe. which is incomprehendably massive.. grabe a small pale of sand.. ull spend the rest of your life counting the grains in it and still wont finish.. now take all the sand on the earth there is more stars than that by 100 fold. do i believe in ufos? yes. to many sightings by reliable people on to frequent of occasion just like an example "phoenix lights" flares, that makes sence since thousands of people saw the exact same thing and im sure if they were just flares they wouldnt have stayed around for as long as they did, thats besides the point.

    there is more at work here than meets the eye. could aliens have built these? its a far shot could primitive humans have? from what we know today maby but its an equally far shot

    and someone please tell me how ancient sumarians have glyphs dipicting humans with "gasmasks" on them and "rocket ships" that errily resemble todays' just some food for thought.

    i have my flame suit on so flame away, its my opinion but i know someones gonna call me stupid "no evidance" ect ect ect. so please constructive critisim is welcome.. key word constructive

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    as a moderator thoes comments are really not needed at all and dont contribute to the topic very unprofessional "the last part of the reply"
    Moderators are posters too. That is how it has been from day 1. If you have some proof and pictures, please...go ahead...contribute it here.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    as a moderator thoes comments are really not needed at all and dont contribute to the topic very unprofessional "the last part of the reply"
    Poppycock. His comments were spot on and to the point. Moreover, they lacked the arrogant and condescending tone that I, the actual moderator of this subforum, will show below. kmguru simply pointed out that there is no evidence for the silly as shit speculation that there is any reason the inhabitants of the region couldn't have built the site.
    the ruins were made on a hard surface but not a rock foundation rocky ground but not a foundation so that "man that can move everything" use a small rock under the block. that wont work in this situation
    Why not. What are the data and experimental archaeology used to arrive at this conclusion. Your failure to cite it will be taken as concession of the claim.

    another thing is that i dont believe that a line that smal and that percise cannot be made by a chisle and blunt force its the exact same depth the whole way across..
    Ah... you "dont [sic] believe" therefore it must be so. Clearly you're taking an ethnocentric point of view in assuming that because they were in a "stone age" the people living there must also be stupid or less intelligent. If we are to evaluate your own spelling mistakes in this post, perhaps we can arrive at the conclusion that your are projecting your own limited intelligence on the people who lived and dedicated their lives to the construction of their temples so long ago. But such an evaluation and subsequent conclusion would be too condescending even for me.

    i want to see the greatest of stoneworkers using primitive tools recreate the same they cant use metal or any machine fabricated stone tools. remember it cant be diamond tiped.
    There was no need to invoke the "greatest stoneworkers." Such feats were conducted via experimental archaeology in several sites all over the world where stone was quarried -nearly always in the original quarries. For every question of "how," an archaeologist has experimented in an effort to duplicate the results and determine not "if" it could be done (very clearly it could be since it was) but what methods were the most likely used by those that created monumental architecture and, more importantly, what is it we can learn about how these people lived their day-to-day lives by understanding how they quarried stone among many other, far more interesting things like how they prepared meals and organized themselves socially. But, more to your fantasy's about "the ancients," the stone work present in places like Tiwanaku are very much within the means of those working the stone and the work has been duplicated time and again (e.g. Aston, Harrell, and Shaw 2006).

    something everyone is over looking even if the above was true. lets assume it was done.. explain how the perfect circular holes were cut i say cut because they didnt have a drill.
    Why wouldn't they have drills? Certainly not the drills envisioned in your ethnocentric (temporal-centric?) imagination, but drills nonetheless. Not only is there artifactual evidence of them in many cultures around the world that shows once monumental architecture began, experimental archaeology has shown precisely how such drills would work -without any diamond.

    after all that its down to opinion but having qualified people saying that we couldnt even recreate that percision today says something..
    Anyone who makes the claim that "we couldnt [sic] even recreate that percision [sic] today" is not qualified to comment on the topic. We (archaeologists) already have recreated many if not all of the techniques used by early stone-working craftsmen. It was done without modern tools and a level of precision was obtained that is equal to that found in the archaeological record.

    i can gaurentee you we couldnt do it without using modern tools
    What are you willing to "gaurentee [sic]?"

    do i believe in life outside ours? yes imo its crazy not to think there is no single celled organism in the universe. which is incomprehendably massive..
    Clearly this is off-topic. I fail to see what microbes in space have to do with stone-quarrying techniques in ancient Bolivia and Peru. Surely your aren't suggesting these microbes came here and did it for our retarded ancient Peruvians??

    and someone please tell me how ancient sumarians have glyphs dipicting humans with "gasmasks" on them and "rocket ships" that errily resemble todays' just some food for thought.
    Easy. They don't. And only the undereducated and ignorant would think so.

    Reference:

    Aston, Barbara C., James A. Harrell, and Ian Shaw (2006). Stone, in Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology, eds. P. Nicholson and I. Shaw. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

  5. #45
    Valued Senior Member sifreak21's Avatar
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    id put almost anything on it.. i wanna se a new age stone worker take a piece of dyrite or less hard rock and make theos carvings and thoes holes.. please show me.. cut blocks that percice and "puzzle like" using primitve tools, even if they could cut a line that small that long and exactly that depth how do you drill a hole in dyrite even with another piece of dyrite with no machining.. show me i have proof that its there now i just need the proof to show how it was all done there are a few facts here..

    1 dyrite can only be cut by dyrite or harder "diamond"
    2 experts have stated we today with our technology couldnt recreate puma punku
    3 there is no other architechture anywhere else around the world
    4 its at a very high altitude and crops wouldnt grow, how do you support the workforce it would be needed to create that for extended periods of time
    5 to my knowledge there is no dyrite around the place. soo question must be asked how did they take 500,000 pound blocks up to that elevation
    if im wrong i stand corrected

  6. #46
    Why is the rum gone? Trippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    id put almost anything on it.. i wanna se a new age stone worker take a piece of dyrite or less hard rock and make theos carvings and thoes holes.. please show me.. cut blocks that percice and "puzzle like" using primitve tools, even if they could cut a line that small that long and exactly that depth how do you drill a hole in dyrite even with another piece of dyrite with no machining.. show me i have proof that its there now i just need the proof to show how it was all done there are a few facts here..

    1 dyrite can only be cut by dyrite or harder "diamond"
    2 experts have stated we today with our technology couldnt recreate puma punku
    3 there is no other architechture anywhere else around the world
    4 its at a very high altitude and crops wouldnt grow, how do you support the workforce it would be needed to create that for extended periods of time
    5 to my knowledge there is no dyrite around the place. soo question must be asked how did they take 500,000 pound blocks up to that elevation
    if im wrong i stand corrected
    You haven't even tried to follow this thread have you?
    1 dyrite can only be cut by dyrite or harder "diamond"
    This point has been addressed exhaustively (see Post #30 and Post #39), and you're wrong. Corrundum (and potentially quartz) is harder than Diorite also (note the correct spelling of the word).

    2 experts have stated we today with our technology couldnt recreate puma punku
    Cite just one.

    3 there is no other architechture anywhere else around the world
    An unprovable claim.

    4 its at a very high altitude and crops wouldnt grow, how do you support the workforce it would be needed to create that for extended periods of time
    And yet, crops do go, because there are a number of villages around the lake. Hmmm. I wonder if the members of those villages could possibly provide a workforce...

    5 to my knowledge there is no dyrite around the place. soo question must be asked how did they take 500,000 pound blocks up to that elevation
    Your knowledge is wrong. I'm 90% certain that there has been an article linked to in this thread that describes an experiment that was carried out transporting a large piece of diorite, comparable to those used in the structure at Puma Punku. Do you understand what that means? There is a source of Diorite within the general vicinity of Puma-punku, that is accessable by water and diorite blocks of that size can be moved by boats made from reeds readily available around the shoreline of that lake.
    Last edited by Trippy; 11-17-09 at 11:00 AM.

  7. #47
    Valued Senior Member sifreak21's Avatar
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    i stand corrected then.. you still havent told me how a hole was drilled.. the percisions of the cuts that couldnt be hand made.. even if some forms of quarts was harder show me proof anythign that someone could make cuts like that percise with blunt force or a chisiling action you cant because its not possible some will chip here and there, there is proof of machining in the pieces,

    as for citing jsut watch ancient aliens.

    and it can be proven that no other work like puma punku is around JUST LOOK something that masive survived for 14 to 17,000 years anything around that time that massive would still be around.. and theres not anything later than that... it would still be around.. there are may prymids around so we know that type of construction is all over but none like puma punku.. which makes great prymids look like childs play

  8. #48
    Why is the rum gone? Trippy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    i stand corrected then.. you still havent told me how a hole was drilled.. the percisions of the cuts that couldnt be hand made.. even if some forms of quarts was harder show me proof anythign that someone could make cuts like that percise with blunt force or a chisiling action you cant because its not possible some will chip here and there, there is proof of machining in the pieces,
    Did you read anything I linked to in my last post?

    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    as for citing jsut watch ancient aliens.
    Umnmm... No.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifreak21 View Post
    and it can be proven that no other work like puma punku is around JUST LOOK something that masive survived for 14 to 17,000 years anything around that time that massive would still be around.. and theres not anything later than that... it would still be around.. there are may prymids around so we know that type of construction is all over but none like puma punku.. which makes great prymids look like childs play
    And of course you can cite proof that Puma Punku is that old?
    Oh, sure, there's been a couple of people that have stated that it's that old based on astronomical alignments (in papers published in 1900 and 1930) however there is no proof of any occupation of the site dating back that far (midden heaps, tools etc) - unless you're claiming that not only did the original occupiers vacate the premises (why precisely did they do that) but they also removed every piece of evidence they were ever there except the structure itself. Isn't this seeming just a little silly yet?

  9. #49
    1 dyrite can only be cut by dyrite or harder "diamond"
    One can only assume you mean "diorite" (please, for the sake of intelligent discussion, get a spell checker or at least take your time and review your work). This is, of course, a false statement. Diorite can, and has been demonstrated to, be cut by methods completely available to the residents of the Titicaca Basin (where Tiwanaku, Pumapunka, etc. is). Copper tubes have been shown to be very effective along with various saws used in conjunction with wet/dry, quartz sand techniques (Stocks 2003, esp. pp. 113-138). Moreover, the stones used in sites like Pumapunka were largely sandstone, a very easy to cut and shape stone, though andesite was used. Andesite is an extrusive form of diorite, but this is the stone type you probably mean to refer to.

    2 experts have stated we today with our technology couldnt recreate puma punku
    No, they haven't. No genuine professional archaeologist has been cited to say this. Please cite the peer reviewed journal where this has been discussed.

    3 there is no other architechture anywhere else around the world
    There are many instances of architecture around the world at various periods of time. This sentence makes very little sense. If you're attempting to say that there is "no other [architecture] like it anywhere else in the world," then you are partially correct and partially wrong. The Andeans had their own architectural style, just as the Egyptians, Mayans, Sumerians, etc did. However, they used many of the same methods and features to shape stone and even transport it.

    4 its at a very high altitude and crops wouldnt grow, how do you support the workforce it would be needed to create that for extended periods of time
    They had considerable access to agriculture through the use of raised field agriculture, which was shown through experimental archaeological tests to be very effective and productive (Alenderfer 2008; Janusek 2004; Janusek and Kolata 2004). This agricultural system was extensive and under the control of the Tiwanaku leadership during the periods of occupation.

    5 to my knowledge there is no dyrite around the place. soo question must be asked how did they take 500,000 pound blocks up to that elevation
    The heaviest stones at the site were on the order of 100-150 tons (less than 300,000 pounds, so 500,000 pounds is an exaggeration) and the average weight of stones imported to the site was far, far less (Protzen and Nair 2000; Vranich 2006). There were no A thin layer of crushed andesite found along the lakeshore in the southeast on the Taraco Peninsula provides evidence that the inhabitants were not only importing but also working large andesite blocks which were imported via a port there (Janusek 2004; Isabell and Burkholder 2002). The evidence points to lacustrine transportation and experimental archaeology has born this hypothesis out as viable (Harmon 2002).

    if im wrong i stand corrected
    Indeed you do.

    Sources:

    http://www.archaeology.org/interacti...umapunku1.html

    Aldenderfer, Mark S. (2008). "High elevation foraging societies, in Handbook of South American Archaeology, eds. H. Silverman and W.H. Isbell. New York: Springer.

    Isbell,W. H., and Burkholder, J. (2002). Iwawi and Tiwanaku, in Andean Archaeology I: Variations in Sociopolitical Organization, eds. H. Silverman and W. H. Isbell. New York: Kluwer Academic/Plenum, pp. 199–242.

    Janusek, John W. (2004). Tiwanaku and its precursors: recent research and emerging perspectives. Journal of Archaeological Research, 12(2), 121-183.

    Janusek, John W., Alan L. Kolata (2004). Top-down or bottom-up: rural settlement in the Lake Titicaca Basin, Bolivia. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, 23, 404-430.

    Plourde, Aimee and Charles Stanish (2006). "The emergence of complex society in the Titicaca Basin: the view from the north," in Andean Archaeology III: North and South, eds. W. Isbell and H. Silverman. New York: Springer, pp. 237-257.

    Protzen, Jean-Pierre, and Stella E. Nair (2000). On Reconstructing Tiwanaku Architecture. The Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, 59(3), 358-371.

    Stocks, Denys A. (2003). Experiments in Egyptian archaeology: stoneworking technology in ancient Egypt. New York: Routledge.
    Last edited by SkinWalker; 11-17-09 at 12:58 PM.

  10. #50
    All of this is very interesting to say the least....but what i'm wondering is...how come there's no older film footage.....like shot on reel film ..and viewable on a projecter....surely this site was as film document worthy when it was first discovered as it is now......film coverage of the site by scientists that are no longer living would be at least proof that this is no hoax

  11. #51
    I don't think anyone is suggesting that the site is a "hoax." It's a real archaeological site that was created by the people that lived there by means and technologies that were available to them.

  12. #52
    I saw a show on the history channel that refered to this site at the end "ancient astronaughts" something to that effect. Was very intreaguing. Honestly though what I think modern science ignores the most and possibly the best evidence yet of something amiss reguarding what the ancients are capable of is Baalbeck's ruins and their trilithon blocks ~750 TONS each....something that most modern cranes would struggle with.

  13. #53
    I wonder if there was any type of semi-advanced civilization between each periods such as Archean , Proterozoic Eons, orbefore the Phanerozoic period...fossil records are pretty much oxidized and gone...

  14. #54
    Valued Senior Member Pandaemoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmguru View Post
    I wonder if there was any type of semi-advanced civilization between each periods such as Archean , Proterozoic Eons, orbefore the Phanerozoic period...fossil records are pretty much oxidized and gone...
    You believe there might have been Precambrian multicellular life? Why would that have evolved twice?

  15. #55
    For sure, man has been destroying them selves for a long, long time. If not man, mother natre. (God?) I'm not trying to start a fight here but peopl like Hawas in Egypt, corrupt our history books and Nepoleon too. But we are smarter than that aren't we? Puma Punku is astonishing, Yes? I believe so, and to think Puma Punku came and went before our recorded history began, awesome.lol If that doesn't get them synapsisssssss to fire what will. Time to remember yes? I don't think how they built it is as important as when they did it is, No? Man can do just about anything when religionies don't get in the way and poloticies don't supress the knowledge. I'm makeing some fun here but It is true, we have to stop fooling ourselves Puma Pnku Is the real deal and we can't suspend our belief about it. I don't think we should just start rewriting history but we should start re-examining what we know and how we know it and not just bend to the will of arrogance and greed.

  16. #56
    There are more starrs in the skys than grains of sand, on all our beaches. It is about what we do with what we have left here, that is our imparative.

  17. #57
    Skin Walker, As to post #49.

    I am not an archaeologist. I don't have an archaeologist's hat or shovel. I don't even know any archaeologists. But I do know building. I don't how big a bunch of reed boats you would have to use to carry a 130 ton stone or even a 100 ton stone across a windswept lake. As to lifting a 100 ton block a setting down on platform of reed boats, good luck! All the people you cite in your references are all beakers and I have seen and worked with them in the field in Antarctica and other places, oh they can write peer reviewed papers that sound good, and show well in computer simulations, but have no basis in field work. If you wanted to lift a 100 ton block of stone cut on and angle and stack in on a beveled lintel you had better set it down very slowly, a 150 ton crane would probably work. And you guys think the Aymara Indians accomplished this with llama hair ropes and wood levers, without writing or the wheel. I have traveled all over the world and seen some of the strangest things, the sculpted mountains in the southern Palau. The offshore city of Nan Madol in Pohnapei, and the same kind structure on Kosrae. Stonehenge in Europe. All this incredible stonework and likewise incredible feats of engineering and you guys think the local dudes accomplished in all without the wheel or writing. So much for practical scholarship. I'm not sure why universities don't conduct classes in commonsense, they should. I don't how many places you have traveled, but really, there is no other stonework like Puma Punku.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker View Post
    One can only assume you mean "diorite" (please, for the sake of intelligent discussion, get a spell checker or at least take your time and review your work). This is, of course, a false statement. Diorite can, and has been demonstrated to, be cut by methods completely available to the residents of the Titicaca Basin (where Tiwanaku, Pumapunka, etc. is). Copper tubes have been shown to be very effective along with various saws used in conjunction with wet/dry, quartz sand techniques (Stocks 2003, esp. pp. 113-138). Moreover, the stones used in sites like Pumapunka were largely sandstone, a very easy to cut and shape stone, though andesite was used. Andesite is an extrusive form of diorite, but this is the stone type you probably mean to refer to.
    I'm not sure how this contributes to the discussion. Why are you mad at people over silly things?

    Not everyone is a scientist. (Which is a good thing. Otherwise it would not be possible to do science as a profession.) There's a lot of gray area between the two extremes of a mental patient and a scientist with their PhD using the full scientific method. People arrive at conclusions every day that would not stand up to scientific scrutiny, but which are also not insane.





    The heaviest stones at the site were on the order of 100-150 tons (less than 300,000 pounds, so 500,000 pounds is an exaggeration) and the average weight of stones imported to the site was far, far less (Protzen and Nair 2000; Vranich 2006). There were no A thin layer of crushed andesite found along the lakeshore in the southeast on the Taraco Peninsula provides evidence that the inhabitants were not only importing but also working large andesite blocks which were imported via a port there (Janusek 2004; Isabell and Burkholder 2002). The evidence points to lacustrine transportation and experimental archaeology has born this hypothesis out as viable (Harmon 2002).
    I think what's sad about this thread is that we've focused so much effort on discussing whether it is possible, rather than assuming it is possible and then discussing whether it constitutes an amazing feat of human accomplishment.

    To move such heavy stones, and then carve them with such precision, would have taken tremendous effort. To get those lines so straight and so exact using lapidary techniques tells me that somebody had a lot of time on their hands, and a lot patience and devotion.


    As to the technology involved, I'm always curious if it is possible we will find that these people thought of something we haven't thought of yet. Not like a laser blaster, or anti gravity device, or anything like that, but maybe something novel. A different way of building a crane, or a chemical or metallurgical combination that does something nifty.

  19. #59
    Think!!!! if some colossal natural calamity wipes out this western civilization and only a few will survive that calamity, do you think those survivors are capable of building freeways, aircraft, satellites, 100 storey towers? In any society, technocrats constitute only a fraction and in such circumstances, who has time to worry about the just lost civilization? They are all worried about how to survive that post-apocalyptic event.
    You are only showing your ignorance whenever you say those people who lived those times are illiterate stone agers. Most scientists are totally biased. You are not scientist and not pursuing the path of knowledge, you wanna see only that wish to see. very shameful!

  20. #60

    http://www.ashishstoneexports.com

    Ashish stone exports is a organization in the field of granite and also Manufacturers & suppliers in different Granite products such as Granite Slab, Granite Tiles, Granite counter top and vanity tops in India.

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