Thread: Man Beheads Wife in 'Honor' Killing

  1. #321
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Why is the word translated as slaves in your translations?
    Why do continue to defend an untenable position?

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Oh please, his area of expertise is Ottoman history. Thats all.

    How do you gauge his "accuracy"?
    Because it is well researched and documented.


    Missed this. The Muslims went to Slavic lands and captured Europeans?

    In the early days of the Islamic Caliphate—during the 8th and 9th centuries—most of the slaves were Slavic Eastern Europeans (called Saqaliba), people from surrounding Mediterranean areas, Persians, Turks, peoples from the Caucasus mountain regions (such as Georgia, Armenia and Circassia) and parts of Central Asia and Scandinavia, Berbers from North Africa, and various other peoples of varied origins as well as those of Black African origins. Later, toward the 18th and 19th centuries, slaves increasingly came from East Africa.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    It was meant in the context that Muslims also enslaved from the Slavic regions. If they freed them, they wouldn't be enslaved, would they? But they were not freed, instead they remained as slaves, and thus, "enslaved".

  3. #323
    so, about that honour killing....has her family spoken out?

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Orleander View Post
    so, about that honour killing....has her family spoken out?
    Who cares.. this is about slavery now. Get with the program !

  5. #325
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Although Islam is much credited for moderating the age-old institution of slavery, which was also accepted and endorsed by the other monotheistic religions, Christianity and Judaism, and was a well-established custom of the pre-Islamic world, it has never preached the abolition of slavery as a doctrine.

    Forough Jahanbaksh, Islam, Democracy and Religious Modernism in Iran, 1953-2000, 2001


    The paradox

    A poignant paradox of Islamic slavery is that the humanity of the various rules and customs that led to the freeing of slaves created a demand for new slaves that could only be supplied by war, forcing people into slavery or trading slaves.

    Muslim slavery continued for centuries

    The legality of slavery in Islam, together with the example of the Prophet Muhammad, who himself bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves, may explain why slavery persisted until the 19th century in many places (and later still in some countries). The impetus for the abolition of slavery came largely from colonial powers, although some Muslim thinkers argued strongly for abolition.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Enmos View Post
    Who cares.. this is about slavery now. Get with the program !
    My bad. I'm gonna have to read up on stuff that happened decades ago instead of reading about what just happened.

    Ummm, do I need to wear a mask if I join in this hi-jacking??

  7. #327
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    Because it is well researched and documented.
    Only the Ottoman trade. And mostly by him.




    In the early days of the Islamic Caliphate—during the 8th and 9th centuries—most of the slaves were Slavic Eastern Europeans (called Saqaliba), people from surrounding Mediterranean areas, Persians, Turks, peoples from the Caucasus mountain regions (such as Georgia, Armenia and Circassia) and parts of Central Asia and Scandinavia, Berbers from North Africa, and various other peoples of varied origins as well as those of Black African origins. Later, toward the 18th and 19th centuries, slaves increasingly came from East Africa.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    It was meant in the context that Muslims also enslaved from the Slavic regions. If they freed them, they wouldn't be enslaved, would they? But they were not freed, instead they remained as slaves, and thus, "enslaved".
    I think you missed what ice and I were discussing. He was telling me where Europeans had not considered slaves as subhuman by giving examples of Europeans enslaving their own people. But what I read about slaves in Greece and Rome did not support that assertion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orleander View Post
    My bad. I'm gonna have to read up on stuff that happened decades ago instead of reading about what just happened.

    Ummm, do I need to wear a mask if I join in this hi-jacking??
    Nope, its all perfectly acceptable to join in fruitful discussions of Muslim bashing in this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Why do continue to defend an untenable position?
    What position is that? Your mistranslated cut and paste efforts?
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 02-24-09 at 10:08 AM.

  8. #328
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    One of the most significant revolts among slaves in the Arab world occured in Basra, Iraq. This was after the Arabs settled in and became agriculturists and decided that manual labour was too demeaning for them. So they imported slave labour from Africa.

    The actual revolt started with a descendant of slaves named ˤAlī b. Muhammad. He had grown up in Samarra and not much else is known about his early life. Eventually he moved to the "Abbasid capital, where he mixed with some of the influential slaves of Caliph al-Muntasir (861-862 A.D.)”[2]. It was here that ˤAlī b. Muhammad learned the workings of the caliphate and financial differences between the Muslim citizens. From here, ˤAlī moved to Bahrain, where he pretended to be Shīˤī and started to rouse the people into rebellion against he caliphate. “Ali’s following in the city grew so large that land taxes were collected in his name.”[4] The rebellion eventually failed and ˤAlī relocated to Basrah in 868 CE.
    This was at the time of the Abbasid caliphate which was imperialistic in its nature:

    In Basrah, ˤAlī b. Muhammad preached at the mosque, advocating against the caliphate and for the people.

    When he heard news about another scuffle between Basrah’s factions he started to seek out “began to seek out black slaves working in the Basrah marshes and to inquire into their working conditions and nutritional standards.”[2] He told the Zanj and other slaves that he was sent by God to liberate them from their bonds.

    [Following the rejection of his assumed lineage] Ali started to preach the “extremely egalitarian doctrine of the Kharijites, who preached that the most qualified man should reign, even if he was an Abyssinian slave.”[2]The caliphate eventually sent out a large military force led by the Vizier Al-Muwaffaq.”[2]. After several encounters, the caliphate army started to make examples of rebellion leaders.

    For instance, Yahya of Bahrain, a noted leader of the rebel troops, was taken with a small group of men and sent to Samarra. There he was flogged two hundred times while Caliph al-Mu'tamid watched. Both his arms and legs were amputated and he was slashed with swords. Finally, his throat was slit and he was burned.[4]

    This did nothing to hinder the Zanjī and they continued to raid towns and villages. “When the caliphate became preoccupied with the Saffarid secessionist movement in Persia, the Zanjī extended their control further north with the aid of the surrounding Bedouin peoples.”[6] It was probably at this time that the Zanjī constructed their capital which was called Moktara (the Elect City).
    Unfortunately, after this, the Zanj degenerated into slave traders themselves, becoming what they had most despised. But their rebellion set an example and by the tenth century, trading slaves was abandoned as a form of treaty and other forms of trade became the norm.

    Source:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanj_Rebellion

  9. #329
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    One of the most significant revolts among slaves in the Arab world occured in Basra, Iraq. This was after the Arabs settled in and became agriculturists and decided that manual labour was too demeaning for them. So they imported slave labour from Africa.
    Yet, it is not considered demeaning to be a slave in islam?

  10. #330
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Yet, it is not considered demeaning to be a slave in islam?
    Nope, but people will do pretty much anything to avoid manual labour. Even outsource it. While clamouring the nobility of work.

  11. #331
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Excuse me, DH, but fuck you, you little shithead. She is what she is. Don't you fucking dare minimize someone else's claim of heritage. Asshole.
    This from the man who minimises Palestinian claims all the time.

    I don't. I think of everyone from Africans to Gauls to the Irish (by Vikings). I also consider the various levels of free and unfree people in the Middle Ages. You need to get out more.
    You're the liar, you support the expulsion of native Palestinians by white men from Europe and America based on religion. and ethnicity

  12. #332
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    So, then the point is proven.

    Also: all this nonsense of better treatment of slaves in islam amounts to sheer speculation flapped about as regional variability. You'll find as many "kind" owners of slaves, or medieval overlords (West and East) as bad. You prefer to go with your perceptions, which are coloured by your history.

  13. #333
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    This from the man who minimises Palestinian claims all the time.
    Do I claim they aren't Palestinians now?

    Nationhood isn't race and you know it. Or I hope you do.

  14. #334
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Nationhood isn't race and you know it. Or I hope you do.
    And race is nationhood? Whoopie
    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    So, then the point is proven.

    Also: all this nonsense of better treatment of slaves in islam amounts to sheer speculation flapped about as regional variability. .
    Not at all, its recorded history. And one has only to look at western nations vs Islamic nations to see where assimilation with slaves has been a problem. And a national wound.

  15. #335
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    And race is nationhood? Whoopie
    You've just accidentally agreed with me again.

  16. #336
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Not at all, its recorded history.
    Then it should be easy to find a suitably supported link.

    And one has only to look at western nations vs Islamic nations to see where assimilation with slaves has been a problem.
    Well, herding Jews off to gas chambers wasn't a "problem" for the Germans specifically, either. What happened to the African slaves in the ME, anyway?

  17. #337
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Then it should be easy to find a suitably supported link.
    Look it up, its recorded history.


    Well, herding Jews off to gas chambers wasn't a "problem" for the Germans specifically, either. What happened to the African slaves in the ME, anyway?
    They were assimilated.

    Unlike the Tasmanians.

    '[The native Tasmanians] had been used for slave labour and sexual pleasure, tortured and mutilated. They had been hunted like vermin and their skin had been sold for government bounty. When the males were killed female survivors were turned loose with the heads of their husbands tied around their necks. Males who were not killed were usually castrated. Children were clubbed to death. When the last indigenous Tasmanian male, William Lance, died in 1869, his grave was opened by a Member of the Royal Society of Tasmania, Dr George Stokell, who made a tobacco pouch from his skin.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=RJM...+dogs#PPA91,M1

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    some tale...

    sounds like a folk lore.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasmanian_Aborigines

  19. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    So far no one on this thread has been able to provide any source which allows slavery in Islam. This proves without a doubt that the rhetoric of some people is just based on racism and hatred of Muslims.
    None of us care much what is or is not supposedly allowed in Islam. We are talking about real life Muslims.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    As Janissaries became aware of their own importance they began to desire a better life.
    Exactly. So you see that this:
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    it's hard to imagine a civil rights movement coming up among these disenfranchised slaves.
    is answered. And other armed groups of slaves had "begun to desire a better life" in other places, such as the gladiators in Rome, so that most slaveowners restricted their properties' access to weapons for good reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    I always thought it was from the Greeks who enslaved the Slavic population?
    Sure, given the chance. But Vikings among others traded slaves to the Mediterranean.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    Because POWs are different when under Islam and under the West?
    Because slaves are different from prisoners.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    He was telling me where Europeans had not considered slaves as subhuman by giving examples of Europeans enslaving their own people. But what I read about slaves in Greece and Rome did not support that assertion.
    So what was it that you read? First it's come up.

    Apparently you have a good deal invested in a picture of the world in which Europeans have always considered all slaves to be subhuman. That's a bit odd.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    Yet, it is not considered demeaning to be a slave in islam?

    Nope, but people will do pretty much anything to avoid manual labour.
    In your example, you describe Muslims capturing slaves from Africa to do work which is demeaning to those Muslims. Was it also demeaning to the captured Africans? Why or why not?
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    Not at all, its recorded history. And one has only to look at western nations vs Islamic nations to see where assimilation with slaves has been a problem. And a national wound.
    The Western world is full of descendents of assimilated slaves, with the solitary exception of the Africans enslaved for the plantation colonies in the Americas. That is indeed a national wound, but not in all the West, or even in all the Americas. It stands out as a unique circumstance, as unlike other Western slavery as it is unlike Islamic world slavery. The differences are well worth studying. But we were speaking of slavery in general.

    The Islamic world shows little sign of having assimilated its African or Caucasian slaves, btw. Looking around, it's difficult to find their descendents. Where we find green eyes and light hair, we find it where armies of Caucasians went, not where Caucasian slaves were numerous, for example.

  20. #340
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Look it up, its recorded history.
    Then unrecord it and play me some.

    They were assimilated.
    Into what? The ground? Tazmania has nothing to do with this.

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