Thread: Man Beheads Wife in 'Honor' Killing

  1. #201
    Registered Senior Member Buffalo Roam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    The difference being that slaves held court positions in the Muslim world and were not selected for being an inferior race or colour. Not that it's a justification, but we still have servants in India. Western slavery was entirely different and based on race and colour.
    .Really and exactly what percent of the slave population reached those lofty heights?

    And what percent were castrated, and worked to death under the boot of Islam, or held in the Harem or sold servants and sex slaves for the True believer of Islam.

  2. #202
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Hard to tell since the don't have rap or hip hop to distinguish them

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Hard to tell since the don't have rap or hip hop to distinguish them
    Bleh.. you edited it while I was editing my post.

    It might be less, but to deny it ever happened, to blame only one group of committing the crime, reeks of ignorance. Which is why I wished to remind DH that while the West took part in slavery, blaming them for the crime and attempting to portray Muslims in a solely favourable light.. all while ignoring that they too took part in the slave trade in the past and present, is hypocritical in the extreme.

  4. #204
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    I think the fact that they cannot be distinguished from the general population speaks to the differences. I've always found it odd that natives in secular countries are distinctive by their second class status, just as previous slaves and new immigrant communities are.

    In the Middle East you can't tell one from the other

  5. #205
    Woo is resistant to reason PieAreSquared's Avatar
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    secular countries

    lol... no wonder you don't want to blame religion

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by PieAreSquared View Post
    Sam.. you're a woman in India ...
    welcome to the world of guile, disguises, and false pretenses.

  7. #207
    Valued Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    Diamond is right:
    He is wrong about Pakistani rates of honor killing, and seriouly addled in ascribing incidents like this one to Western influence or lack of Islamic belief.
    Quote Originally Posted by zaim
    in islam we don't see any difference between men and women, if the man do a mistake he will punish in the same punishment which women will punish by it
    I have not encountered very many stories of a man's mother and sisters getting together and killing him for shaming the family, in Islamic countries. Is that because of biased reporting?
    Quote Originally Posted by ziam
    at last i think that read some statistics will help some people to realize that crimes don't know what religion or race mean
    On the other hand, the lack of statistics - the failure to compile accurate counts of certain crimes and vices - does seem to be correlated with religious influence.
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    What we should really be asking ourselves is why are infidelity, prostitution, divorce, and martial violence so common in America.
    Americans ask themselves such questions all the time. And they have fairly accurate numbers to use in thinking and talking about the issues involved. How can anyone who thinks honor killings are maybe once a year, and only in rural areas, even begin to discuss the problems in Pakistan?
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    Slavery is forbidden in Islam.
    Slavery has historically been common among Muslims, and exists to this day among Islamic peoples in some places.
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    A large number, more than 40 million slaves brought by the white Europeans to the new world were Muslims.
    Bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    To use Saudi Arabia as the example of Muslims is simply insulting to us.
    A minute before you were claiming all Muslims as your brothers. The Saudis are the most important Muslims in the world to Americans - oil, 9/11, money, our national politics and foreign policy are bound up with their religion, which is Islam. Mecca is in Saudi Arabia.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    I bet you don't even know that "Arab" slavers includes both Africans and Jews and that most of their slaves were white women, for their harems. I.e. The flesh trade
    Islamic empires built entire armies of male children taken from non-Islamic peoples and captured by Muslim slave raiders. And the Muslim flesh trade was famous for emphasizing boys and eunuchs to an unusual degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    No he murdered the iroqouis but they were not considered humans.
    Washington considered them human, as did enough of the early Americans that the political structure of the United States is thought by some to have been partly modeled after the much-respected Five Nations, Federation of Tribes, or United Tribes in occasional translation.
    Quote Originally Posted by SAM
    In the Middle East you can't tell one from the other
    There aren't any "natives" in the Middle East. Come back in three thousand years, maybe there won't be any in the US either - one way or another.

  8. #208
    Shake them dice and roll 'em jessiej920's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    as the intention of this thread has degenerated to pointing out the evils of
    Muslims you'll find it's completely on course.

    Much like any other thread about Muslims on this forum
    Oh please. The intention of this thread was not to point out the evils of Muslims, it was to point out the evils of humanity and how we try to excuse them based on things like religion and culture. The OP simply asked what one thought of this man's defense of his actions. It's interesting how many people hide behind their religions when it is convenient for them. As if God or Jesus or Allah or whatever the hell it is people pray to these days is some type of insurance agent.

    SAM, from what I can tell, you have a very biased opinion that blatantly shows everytime you use the word 'you' to generalize and group a bunch of people together who you think either a) hate you, b) are racist to you or c) criticize anything you believe is right.

    Half of everything you said in this thread has been 'you people do this...', 'you people do that...'. And yet you get mad when someone has the nerve to say 'you Muslims do this...'?

    I don't get it. If anything, you have been the one dragging out the off-topic posting.

  9. #209
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, as with all threads about Islam (thread made into Muslim hate threads which were not originally intended so), it attracts dogs to scream whatever nonsense they came come up with to defame and demean Muslims. Sources are not necessary, it is simply based on rhetoric. This vile hatred of others is indeed the fall of human civilization and proves some people have no right to consider themselves as enlightened above others.

    Seeing as the vast majority of the members of this forum are white Westerners, obviously they have a problem with their peoples' crimes in the past. The common answer to this is to deflect blame. I have even heard from a white Westerner that they are offended because they are a descendant of a slave. What kind of nonsense is being furthered in this thread?

    For the record, slavery is haram, unlawful in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) mandated every Muslim not only to free his own slaves, but to earn money to free slaves held by non-Muslims as a tenet of their faith. In Islam, there is only paid servitude, which is a matter of choice for the servant, and this is allowed so that these people can make an income. Their lives, property, children, or any other family are not owned by anyone except God. Islam teaches us that no man is a slave to another man, but all are slaves to God, therefore slavery cannot be practiced according to the Quran and sunnah. I don't want to hear any more of this nonsense unless it is backed by evidence from the Quran and hadith, along with tafsir.

    As far as my people engaging in slavery, that is an outright lie. Though I am from the Middle East/ West Asia, my people never engaged in slavery of anyone. It is true the Arabs engaged in slavery before Islam arrived, but after Islam there was a wholesale reformation and enlightenment in the Arab world which changed the hearts of man. As far as Africans, yes they did engage in capturing of war captives, but this was low-scale tribal wars which resulted in very few casualties and were launched to preserve family honor. Most of the captives taken were enemy soldiers, not innocent civilians as was the case with the slave trade carried on by the white Europeans.

    It is unfortunate however that some of our African brothers fell prey to the predations of European colonial powers by capturing enemy villages to enslave them to exchange them for guns and ammunition. It came to such a time, the European colonial powers only accepted slaves for payment to give guns and ammunition to warring factions, thus playing both sides of the conflicts (look at the parallel to Iran-Iraq war). If we look at it even today, the gun market for African guerrilla groups is still largely facilitated by Westerners. Africa is the most unstable continent in the world today, and the pouring of guns is not helping the situation. Unfortunately, it is not like the world community, dominated by Europe and her offspring, really care.

    Slavery as practiced by the white European settlers of the new world is the worse crime in human history. It was not only physical slavery, but mental, spiritual, and moral slavery. Slaves were forbidden to read or write, they were forced to work without any pay, their children were born in slavery, they were forbidden to do anything seen as "African" or "Islamic", and their wives and daughters were daily exploited by white men.

    This is the single most vile and inhumane crime in human history. To deny this is worse than denying Holocaust, it should be a crime. And yet the Western nations have not given reparations or any economic aid to the countries and people they exploited. The white American may have 'forgotten' slavery, but the black Americans and other minorities will never forget this, and we shouldn't either. Lest we forget, African American history begins in slavery, because their previous heritage was taken from them.

    Anyway, let's get back to the original topic of this thread.

  10. #210
    Registered Senior Member swarm's Avatar
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    4,207
    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    If you are going to have a rant about Europeans taking slaves...
    "slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan."

    "In 2003 a high-level Saudi jurist, Shaykh Salih al-Fawzaan, issued a fatwa claiming “Slavery is a part of Islam. Slavery is part of jihad, and jihad will remain as long there is Islam.”[115] He attacked Muslim scholars who said otherwise maintaining, “They are ignorant, not scholars ... They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel.” At the time of the fatwa, al-Fawzaan was a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia’s highest religious body, a member of the Council of Religious Edicts and Research, the Imam of Prince Mitaeb Mosque in Riyadh, and a professor at Imam Mohamed Bin Saud Islamic University, the main Wahhabi center of learning in the country."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I think the fact that they cannot be distinguished from the general population speaks to the differences. I've always found it odd that natives in secular countries are distinctive by their second class status, just as previous slaves and new immigrant communities are.

    In the Middle East you can't tell one from the other
    So you think it is somehow more acceptable if they somehow blend in?

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts View Post
    Unfortunately, as with all threads about Islam (thread made into Muslim hate threads which were not originally intended so), it attracts dogs to scream whatever nonsense they came come up with to defame and demean Muslims. Sources are not necessary, it is simply based on rhetoric. This vile hatred of others is indeed the fall of human civilization and proves some people have no right to consider themselves as enlightened above others.

    Seeing as the vast majority of the members of this forum are white Westerners, obviously they have a problem with their peoples' crimes in the past. The common answer to this is to deflect blame. I have even heard from a white Westerner that they are offended because they are a descendant of a slave. What kind of nonsense is being furthered in this thread?

    For the record, slavery is haram, unlawful in Islam. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) mandated every Muslim not only to free his own slaves, but to earn money to free slaves held by non-Muslims as a tenet of their faith. In Islam, there is only paid servitude, which is a matter of choice for the servant, and this is allowed so that these people can make an income. Their lives, property, children, or any other family are not owned by anyone except God. Islam teaches us that no man is a slave to another man, but all are slaves to God, therefore slavery cannot be practiced according to the Quran and sunnah. I don't want to hear any more of this nonsense unless it is backed by evidence from the Quran and hadith, along with tafsir.

    As far as my people engaging in slavery, that is an outright lie. Though I am from the Middle East/ West Asia, my people never engaged in slavery of anyone. It is true the Arabs engaged in slavery before Islam arrived, but after Islam there was a wholesale reformation and enlightenment in the Arab world which changed the hearts of man. As far as Africans, yes they did engage in capturing of war captives, but this was low-scale tribal wars which resulted in very few casualties and were launched to preserve family honor. Most of the captives taken were enemy soldiers, not innocent civilians as was the case with the slave trade carried on by the white Europeans.

    It is unfortunate however that some of our African brothers fell prey to the predations of European colonial powers by capturing enemy villages to enslave them to exchange them for guns and ammunition. It came to such a time, the European colonial powers only accepted slaves for payment to give guns and ammunition to warring factions, thus playing both sides of the conflicts (look at the parallel to Iran-Iraq war). If we look at it even today, the gun market for African guerrilla groups is still largely facilitated by Westerners. Africa is the most unstable continent in the world today, and the pouring of guns is not helping the situation. Unfortunately, it is not like the world community, dominated by Europe and her offspring, really care.

    Slavery as practiced by the white European settlers of the new world is the worse crime in human history. It was not only physical slavery, but mental, spiritual, and moral slavery. Slaves were forbidden to read or write, they were forced to work without any pay, their children were born in slavery, they were forbidden to do anything seen as "African" or "Islamic", and their wives and daughters were daily exploited by white men.

    This is the single most vile and inhumane crime in human history. To deny this is worse than denying Holocaust, it should be a crime. And yet the Western nations have not given reparations or any economic aid to the countries and people they exploited. The white American may have 'forgotten' slavery, but the black Americans and other minorities will never forget this, and we shouldn't either. Lest we forget, African American history begins in slavery, because their previous heritage was taken from them.

    Anyway, let's get back to the original topic of this thread.
    /Gobsmacked.

    I am not a "white Westerner". My Grandfather was actually a black man. And yes, I am descended from slave stock. We even traced it and know exactly from who we are descended. We also know that many of our ancestor's relatives were killed after they had escaped their white master. And yes, I find your refusal to accept that the people who practiced your religion in the past and in the present who did engage in the slave trade to be down right insulting and ignorant.

    While your belief that your religion views slavery as being forbidden, it does not take away from the very simple fact that Muslims in the past and present practiced slavery. They went into Africa and into parts of Europe and captured people who then became their slaves. You can say it is forbidden as much as you please. It does not hide the fact that Muslims were practicing slavery long before the white Europeans even sailed across the oceans to discover the world. It was a common practice to own slaves. In fact, it was deemed to be something that was completely acceptable.

  13. #213
    Valued Senior Member
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    16,468
    Quote Originally Posted by diamond
    slavery cannot be practiced according to the Quran and sunnah. I don't want to hear any more of this nonsense unless it is backed by evidence from the Quran and hadith, along with tafsir.

    As far as my people engaging in slavery, that is an outright lie. Though I am from the Middle East/ West Asia, my people never engaged in slavery of anyone. It is true the Arabs engaged in slavery before Islam arrived, but after Islam there was a wholesale reformation and enlightenment in the Arab world which changed the hearts of man.
    Your people engaged in slavery. Some of them still do. The Ottoman Empire had slave armies, Muslims dominated the slave trade in various parts of the world, the deep involvement of Muslims in all aspects of the African slave trade except the ocean transport to the Americas is well documented, and continues to this day.

    It wasn't Western Europeans who were capturing all these slaves in Africa, after all.

    And nothing in the Quran is "evidence" of anything except itself, OK?

    Meanwhile, it's a bit discordant to find Muslims claiming that some official fundie Muslim who beheaded his wife for what he claims were Islam-supported motives is just another domestic abuser no different from an ordinary wife-beheader, a couple of weeks after defending the inclusion of sharia law in Western countries as important for handling Muslims who find treatment as ordinary criminals unsuitable.

  14. #214
    Was going to post this story when it broke, but after going a few rounds with Bells over some other Muslim beheading people in Canada(his own daughter), I'm already bored with this kind of news byte.

    Basically, my attitude is "Fuck Islam".

    (actually fuck any religion, but islam is more of a pain in the ass than most lately).

    I won't do anything harmful to anyone Islamic, nor discriminate professionally toward them. But they show any hostility to me, I'm giving both barrels without restraint.

    Kinda funny though (no it's actually hilarious) this guy was the head of some bullshit society to try to get rid of stereotypes about Islam, etc.

    WHOOOPS. Mission failed. No Mission completely fucking backfired....

    Yeah: FUCK ISLAM

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by nietzschefan View Post
    Yeah: FUCK ISLAM
    scenario:
    the man that did this beheading was actually a jew and this entire episode was solely to sow the seeds of hate.

    i'm finding out certain things that leads me to believe that the above scenario isn't entirely without merit.

  16. #216
    Let us not launch the boat ... Tiassa's Avatar
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    Cool Equal treatment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nietzschefan

    But they show any hostility to me, I'm giving both barrels without restraint.
    Is this how you'd treat anyone else, or are you reserving this hostility for Muslims?

  17. #217
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessiej920 View Post
    Oh please. The intention of this thread was not to point out the evils of Muslims, it was to point out the evils of humanity and how we try to excuse them based on things like religion and culture. The OP simply asked what one thought of this man's defense of his actions. It's interesting how many people hide behind their religions when it is convenient for them. As if God or Jesus or Allah or whatever the hell it is people pray to these days is some type of insurance agent

    I don't get it. If anything, you have been the one dragging out the off-topic posting.
    Is that why you began the thread with " a muslim man from Pakistan currently living and working in the US"?

    Is that how you identify all Americans?

    Do you identify them as that Christian man from Poland, that Jewish man from Russia? That Hindu woman from India?

    And why call it an honor killing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessie
    His reason for this 'honor' killing: She served him divorce papers.

    His current defense, the media says, is that because 'honor' killing is a cultural belief and practice he should not be charged with murder.
    Why post lies?

    Quote Originally Posted by From your link
    It's a crime some have dubbed, an honor killing, tied to the couples muslim faith. It's a notion Hassan's attorney says is insulting. "These questions about culture and religion, I think are very inappropriate. I think the media would be better served to let that go," said defense attorney Jim Harrington.

    Nadia Shahram was an attorney for the Bridges station and says the couple was in the midst of a divorce. She says it is a shameful thing in the muslim religion. But she believes the death was not linked to faith but to what she claims is the couples history of domestic violence.
    Sorry I'm not convinced of your so-called claims
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 02-23-09 at 07:15 AM.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by iceaura View Post

    It wasn't Western Europeans who were capturing all these slaves in Africa, after all.
    Yes, Africans were also capturing slaves. They had slaves long before even the Muslims and Europeans arrived. In fact, African kingdoms would raid Africa internal for slaves, and then drag them back to coastal ports to sell to Europeans.

    Don't you find it odd how whenever slavery is mentioned, whites (and sometimes Muslims) are bitched at, but it was actually blacks who were selling their own people into slavery? Why is this never mentioned, I wonder?

  19. #219
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    So you think it is somehow more acceptable if they somehow blend in?
    I think the term "slave" is misleading. If you're going to be picky, then in the ottomans for example, everyone was a slave. The cabinet, the high ranking ministers, the members of the court, the local administrators, the entire army. They were all captured at one time or another and added to the empire. This was regardless of race or colour. Initially only Muslims served in the armies, by law, but the Ottomans were nothing if not pragmatic and soon started to give POWs the option of serving in their army instead. Capturing males from places they went to was not novel to non-Muslim states. How could it be? The ottomans came from Asia and captured the entire middle east. Mostly Muslim lands. Do you think the locals just accepted their right to take over?

    When western people think slaves, they think black, inferior, subhuman.

    The ottomans considered everyone they captured as a potential resource for the empire and they all lived at the mercy of the sultan.

    But it's not slavery as the west defines it. Which is why if you go through the Ottoman Empire today, there is no notion of descendent of slave. While not everyone rose to high ranks in the Sultanate, anyone could.
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 02-23-09 at 04:49 AM.

  20. #220
    Registered Senior Member DiamondHearts's Avatar
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    My original point in bringing up the issue of American slavery was simply to point out that those who declare themselves as 'the champions of liberty' have no right to civilize anyone, before they civilize themselves.

    What right has a country which massacred more than 100,00 civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan the right to talk of justice (I'm being very gracious with this number by the way).

    As expected, no one wishes to debate the underlying issue which is here. Is the killing in this article sanctioned by Islam? Obviously it is not. It doesn't take a scholar to figure that out. Islam forbids extra-judicial murder. This man, regardless of his crime or his background, committed a crime which should be punished to the maximum extent of the law wherever he is. In an Islamic nation, the punishment for this crime is execution, there is no leniency for murder. This is proven by Quran and Hadith, and the Abrahamic law of an eye for an eye.

    As far as the discussion of slavery, I see that some uneducated individuals are comparing taking of war captives from among enemy soldiers to American, European race-based slavery. There is a vast difference between the two. If you don't know, then I suggest you start doing some research rather than simply posting vile rhetoric.

    Bottom line is Islam does not condone slavery, rather it opposes the dominion of one man over the other because it recognizes that all men are slaves of God, thus the one with the most right over their lives is God, not man. This is why the prominent civil rights leader Malcolm X embraced Islam, because he saw Islam as an answer to the race problem in America, which is institutionalized in this country.

    Those who believe racism is dead simply deceive themselves. Ask any African American about this, they will give you the same answer as me. Racism is alive and thriving in the United States. From the media, school textbooks, the military, public radio, and politics.

    Of course, majority of the members of this forum of this forum are white Westerners, therefore it is very difficult for them to see the African American view on this issue. Unfortunately our good friend Lord_Voldemort was banned by the moderators of this forum, so we can't have an honest discussion of racism in America in this forum because it is only one-sided.

    Well, I'm out. I don't have time to waste on racists and haters who flock to these threads like flies. Good day.

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