1. ## Electromagnetism; Faraday to Maxwell.

Seems that Faraday observed the phenomena of the 'right hand rule' suggesting that an 'electric' feild is always associated to a magnetic field.

This electromagnetic interrelation was bridged to light by Michael and created a huge stir against him being he had no math to support the claims.

Then Maxwell provided the mathematical rendition combining the 2 frames as well providing the 'speed' of the traveling wave.

But then NOW in today's teachings, the descriptions of energy, whether electric or potential differences; the analogy of understanding that both electrical energy and light itself are the same exact phenomena is not observed.

Can any share why?

ever notice that Einstein and Newton both had a fetish with 'light'?

as well notice that Einstein's primary gift shared that mass itself was just ........... ?

But then NOW in today's teachings, the descriptions of energy, whether electric or potential differences; the analogy of understanding that both electrical energy and light itself are the same exact phenomena is not observed.
"Today's teachings"? This was known to Maxwell.

4. Originally Posted by BenTheMan
"Today's teachings"? This was known to Maxwell.
NO

but maxwell did provide the math to substantiate faraday's claim; that electrical and magnetic fields are the same thing as 'light' itself.

5. Faraday is the founder of EM, he pretty much discovered all the phenomena of EM, with no more than basic arithmetic.

Maxwell indeed provided the mathematics not to substantiate, Faraday's results were already experimentally proven, Maxwell just developed the framework to quantify Faraday's results as well as discovering the speed of the EM waves' propegation, which he found through the math that his equations only work if the velocity of propegation is a constant, and happened to be the speed of light.

6. Solve Maxwel's equations with appropriate boundary conditions and you find electromagnetic radiation which propagates at the speed of light. Do you not agree with this statement?

But then NOW in today's teachings, the descriptions of energy, whether electric or potential differences; the analogy of understanding that both electrical energy and light itself are the same exact phenomena is not observed.

Can any share why?
There's an electric field, which is setup by electric charges. Electric energy is the flow of those charges. Light is not a flow of charge, it is a flow of photons. Electromagetic fields are produced by charges and charges are affected by electromagnetic fields but they are not the same.

The combining of electric and magnetic fields into a single description, ala Maxwell, is almost second nature to physics now. The formalism in modern physics is much more elegant and powerful than Maxwell's methods, which I think involved quaternions to express his EM equations. As I've been trying to explain to Wanchung over on PhysOrg, you can view the EM tensor (and likewise for the gluon one in QCD) as the curvature of a gauge bundle, where the fibres are the vector potential for the gauge field and the $t_{ij}$ are elements of the gauge group. Pretty much means you can reexpress your gauge theory in an almost geometric manner.

Seems that Faraday observed the phenomena of the 'right hand rule' suggesting that an 'electric' feild is always associated to a magnetic field.

This electromagnetic interrelation was bridged to light by Michael and created a huge stir against him being he had no math to support the claims.

Then Maxwell provided the mathematical rendition combining the 2 frames as well providing the 'speed' of the traveling wave.

But then NOW in today's teachings, the descriptions of energy, whether electric or potential differences; the analogy of understanding that both electrical energy and light itself are the same exact phenomena is not observed.

Can any share why?
Hi. As I understand it, electricity is an electromagnetic wave. Household electricity is a man-made electromagnetic wave. In the UK, it is distributed at 50Hz. Electricity, it would appear, is something like a low frequency radio wave. It's wavelength, shall be something in the order of 6000 km/s.

If you look down the end of an electrical cable, rather like looking down the barrell of a gun, then I would expect the circumference of the wavelength to surround the cable. Current theory does not support this idea. It suggests the wavelength travels ???lengthways???! down the conductor.

I rather like the observation that electricity propagates in wavelengths of 6000 kilometers, until it reaches a lightbulb, where it is forced to reduce to the size of nanometers. This resistance gives us our light.

I'm more inclined to think of electricity as magnetic flow. To my mind, it makes more sense.

9. Originally Posted by munty13
Hi. As I understand it, electricity is an electromagnetic wave. Household electricity is a man-made electromagnetic wave.
No. An electromagnetic wave is a wave consisting of oscillating electric and magnetic fields. In a household wire, only electric fields are important. What you're thinking of is alternating electric current, not EM waves. Electrons move through your household wires and carry the current, not light waves.

Optic fibres, on the other hand, really do carry electromagnetic waves.

It's wavelength, shall be something in the order of 6000 km/s.
km/s is a measure of speed, not length.

If you look down the end of an electrical cable, rather like looking down the barrell of a gun, then I would expect the circumference of the wavelength to surround the cable.
What's does "the circumference of the wavelength" mean?

I rather like the observation that electricity propagates in wavelengths of 6000 kilometers, until it reaches a lightbulb, where it is forced to reduce to the size of nanometers. This resistance gives us our light.
But that's not how light is produced in a lightbulb. In a lightbulb, electric current (i.e. moving electrons) cause atoms in the filament to vibrate (i.e. they cause the filament to heat up). Some of those atoms then emit electromagnetic waves, including light. But this is not a direct conversion of some kind of "electricity wave" to light.

I'm more inclined to think of electricity as magnetic flow. To my mind, it makes more sense.
It's easy to show that electricity and magnetism are quite different phenomena. A flow of charge (electricity) is not magnetism in and of itself.

Why does it "make more sense" to you?

10. Originally Posted by James R
No. An electromagnetic wave is a wave consisting of oscillating electric and magnetic fields. In a household wire, only electric fields are important. What you're thinking of is alternating electric current, not EM waves. Electrons move through your household wires and carry the current, not light waves.

Optic fibres, on the other hand, really do carry electromagnetic waves.

km/s is a measure of speed, not length.
Within the EMR spectrum, the visible light spectrum ranges from roughly 400nm to 700nm. The size of these wavelengths depends upon the frequency at which EMR propagates at the speed of light in one second. What I was trying to say was that in one second, electricity propagates at 50 Hz, so the wavelength is 6000 km.

Electricity is being pumped from a power station to your home. At which speed do you think this is taking place? Remember, that is back and forth, 50times a second.

What's does "the circumference of the wavelength" mean?
I imagine myself, probably quite absurdly, standing directly in the face of a sinusoidal wave like it's an oncoming train. It is no longer lengthways on a screen, but is now facing me. It starts to feel like I am staring down a spiral staircase. One wavelength now appears as the circumference of the staircase. It's practically a circle.

Actuallly, this has an excellent diagram of a sine waves fundamental relationship to a circle. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave

But that's not how light is produced in a lightbulb. In a lightbulb, electric current (i.e. moving electrons) cause atoms in the filament to vibrate (i.e. they cause the filament to heat up). Some of those atoms then emit electromagnetic waves, including light. But this is not a direct conversion of some kind of "electricity wave" to light.
When we pass 50 Hz electrical current through the tungsten of the lamp, it converts the energy into a very high frequency vibration - namely the visible light spectrum.

It's easy to show that electricity and magnetism are quite different phenomena. A flow of charge (electricity) is not magnetism in and of itself.

Why does it "make more sense" to you?
A flow of charge is a mathematical concept that has developed, somewhat wrongly I believe, into illustrating how electricity flows.

11. Munty13,

good thinking

i like your style......... but once i saw your post and who you were squaring up with, i said .........oooops.

It's OK though....... as i rather enjoyed seeing people 'stop and think' as well observing your grasp.

It's coming but paradigm shifts are not easy, and i may be dead before it occurs but at least you know where it came from............ i have the math, but not going to publish in the manner of today's sciences governed by business.

so i am considered all pseudo ........ i don't care

some will awaken, some won't.....

just think of 'energy' as em (light) and the rest is pretty easy

P/s..... look into casimir and entanglement (that 'force' is gravity itself)

enjoy

12. Originally Posted by munty13
Electricity is being pumped from a power station to your home. At which speed do you think this is taking place? Remember, that is back and forth, 50times a second. .
When you turn on a light the 'pulse' from the switch to the light will move at about 2/3 the speed of light. The electrons in the wire communicate by exchanging photons but they have inertia and so there's a tiny delay in the propogation of the current due to that, hence the 2/3.

The 50Hz in power cables is due to the way electricity is made and transmitted. When electricity was being developed for large distance transmission it was originally direct current, like batteries produce, but the energy was completely absorbed by the wires, they couldnt transmit electricity over more than a few miles. Then someone tried alternating current and it didn't have that problem. We generate electricity by spinning magnets, thats all generators are. The frequency of their spinning is carefully controlled, to be 50 times a second. This doesn't mean an electron is going from the power station to your home and back 50 times a second. Infact, the speed of electrons in currents is actually incredibly slow, something like only a few hundred metres a second. It's known as the drift velocity, the electrons bounce around almost at random, moving very very quickly but overall they don't go anywhere if there's no potential applied to a wire. Apply a potential and they still bounce around almost at random, but they slowly drift in a particular direction. People too often think of current in a wire as being like cars on a highway or water in a river, flowing always in one direction. The thermal energy electrons have in wires is generally much more than the energy produced by the potential applied to the wire. Only when you really crank up the potential do you get very uniform electron motion.
Originally Posted by munty13
When we pass 50 Hz electrical current through the tungsten of the lamp, it converts the energy into a very high frequency vibration - namely the visible light spectrum.
The light is not because of the 50Hz but because of the energy of the electrons in the current. A torch works by direct current, because it works on batteries. Anything which doesn't involve a spinning set of magnets to make the electricity will be direct current. Petrol generators generally burn petrol to spin a dynamo, but a car battery will be direct current because its chemical based.

13. Originally Posted by AlphaNumeric
When you turn on a light the 'pulse' from the switch to the light will move at about 2/3 the speed of light. The electrons in the wire communicate by exchanging photons but they have inertia and so there's a tiny delay in the propogation of the current due to that, hence the 2/3.

The 50Hz in power cables is due to the way electricity is made and transmitted. When electricity was being developed for large distance transmission it was originally direct current, like batteries produce, but the energy was completely absorbed by the wires, they couldnt transmit electricity over more than a few miles. Then someone tried alternating current and it didn't have that problem. We generate electricity by spinning magnets, thats all generators are. The frequency of their spinning is carefully controlled, to be 50 times a second. This doesn't mean an electron is going from the power station to your home and back 50 times a second. Infact, the speed of electrons in currents is actually incredibly slow, something like only a few hundred metres a second. It's known as the drift velocity, the electrons bounce around almost at random, moving very very quickly but overall they don't go anywhere if there's no potential applied to a wire. Apply a potential and they still bounce around almost at random, but they slowly drift in a particular direction. People too often think of current in a wire as being like cars on a highway or water in a river, flowing always in one direction. The thermal energy electrons have in wires is generally much more than the energy produced by the potential applied to the wire. Only when you really crank up the potential do you get very uniform electron motion.
The light is not because of the 50Hz but because of the energy of the electrons in the current. A torch works by direct current, because it works on batteries. Anything which doesn't involve a spinning set of magnets to make the electricity will be direct current. Petrol generators generally burn petrol to spin a dynamo, but a car battery will be direct current because its chemical based.
I agree with all that, of course, but with a single minor correction: the speed of any given electron (under voltage pressure) through a conductor is only a measly 1.5 m/s. Just about as fast as a brisk walk for a human. That's the actual 'drift speed.'

14. BenTheMan:
Solve Maxwel's equations with appropriate boundary conditions and you find electromagnetic radiation which propagates at the speed of light. Do you not agree with this statement?
I do not agree.
Show me just REAL ONE solution for the electromagnetic waves radiation based on Maxwell's equation.
You say there are, then show me REAL ONE!
The way you have posted seems you have some solution...
This would be an IDEAL ANTENNA for the "electromagnetic waves", isn't it?
I challenge: show us!

Actually "electromagnetic waves" do not exist:
http://www.geocities.com/anewlightin..._not_exist.htm

15. Originally Posted by AlphaNumeric
When you turn on a light the 'pulse' from the switch to the light will move at about 2/3 the speed of light. The electrons in the wire communicate by exchanging photons but they have inertia and so there's a tiny delay in the propogation of the current due to that, hence the 2/3.

We generate electricity by spinning magnets, thats all generators are. The frequency of their spinning is carefully controlled, to be 50 times a second. This doesn't mean an electron is going from the power station to your home and back 50 times a second. Infact, the speed of electrons in currents is actually incredibly slow, something like only a few hundred metres a second. It's known as the drift velocity, the electrons bounce around almost at random, moving very very quickly but overall they don't go anywhere if there's no potential applied to a wire. Apply a potential and they still bounce around almost at random, but they slowly drift in a particular direction. People too often think of current in a wire as being like cars on a highway or water in a river, flowing always in one direction. The thermal energy electrons have in wires is generally much more than the energy produced by the potential applied to the wire. Only when you really crank up the potential do you get very uniform electron motion.

Hi AlphaNumeric. I never mentioned electrons. I said electricity was magnetic flow (I assume that is why this thread was unceremoniously dumped into Pseudo-science). I'm not saying electrons go to my house and back to the power station at 50 times a second. Rather, electrical energy is supposedly going to my house and back to the power station at 50 times per second.

You are describing electrons exchanging photons throughout the conductor, from the power station to my house, and back. Electric current is supposed to be a flow of electrons which don't flow forward but instead vibrate slightly at 50 times a second, so rather, electric currents are not flows of electrons, they are flows of electric charge.

We are taught that this flow of electric charge travels at the speed of light down the conductor (but the stalling makes it appear slower), from the power station to our houses, and back again, at 50 times per second - but it's using the wobbly, terribly random electron transport and its untidy drift velocity. For something as smooth as electrical current, it simply does not tally up.

The next issue is that if electricity is an EMR wave with a frequency of 50 Hz, it shall emanate a wavelength of some 6000 km. In your scenario, how does this wavelength propagate in/around/through the conductor from the power station to our homes?

16. For a truly great insight on electricity, and magnetism. This guy knew his onions. His name is Edward Leedskalnin.

"You have been wondering why alternating currents can run so far away from their generators. One reason is between every time the currents start and stop there is no pressure in the wire so the magnets from the air run in the wire and when the run starts there already are magnets in the wire which do not have to come from the generator, so the power line itself is a small generator which assists the big generator to furnish the magnets for the currents to run with. I have a generator that generates currents on a small scale from the air without using any -magnets around it."

The entire article is brimming with gems... Bored? Why not ? ...... http://keelynet.com/unclass/magcurnt.txt

17. Originally Posted by munty13
For a truly great insight on electricity, and magnetism. This guy knew his onions. His name is Edward Leedskalnin.

"You have been wondering why alternating currents can run so far away from their generators. One reason is between every time the currents start and stop there is no pressure in the wire so the magnets from the air run in the wire and when the run starts there already are magnets in the wire which do not have to come from the generator, so the power line itself is a small generator which assists the big generator to furnish the magnets for the currents to run with. I have a generator that generates currents on a small scale from the air without using any -magnets around it."

The entire article is brimming with gems... Bored? Why not ? ...... http://keelynet.com/unclass/magcurnt.txt
copied the article but have not read it

have you looked into tesla

that tower was not primary used to transmit energy but use the earth's magnetic field to generate it

moon faces earth 'always' one side because the light going back and forth creates an additional potential...... look up casimir

18. Originally Posted by munty13
For a truly great insight on electricity, and magnetism. This guy knew his onions. His name is Edward Leedskalnin.

"You have been wondering why alternating currents can run so far away from their generators. One reason is between every time the currents start and stop there is no pressure in the wire so the magnets from the air run in the wire and when the run starts there already are magnets in the wire which do not have to come from the generator, so the power line itself is a small generator which assists the big generator to furnish the magnets for the currents to run with. I have a generator that generates currents on a small scale from the air without using any -magnets around it."

The entire article is brimming with gems... Bored? Why not ? ...... http://keelynet.com/unclass/magcurnt.txt
"Magnets from the air" - what sheer nonsense.

That old bird Leedskalnin has long been recognized as a pure kook! He readily admits that he never learned about electricity in school and made up his own ideas about what it was and how it works. Problem is, his version is about as accurate an idea as anything a child of 9 would come with.

He also claims to have moved blocks of coral weighing tons using methods that we don't understand. BUT he only did so under the cover of night and would not allow anyone to watch him do it.

If you choose to believe a single word from this proven quack, feel free to do so - but just don't be surprised when everyone considers you a crackpot too.

"Magnets from the air" - what sheer nonsense.
Hi Read-Only. I believe he's referring to the latent magnetism that is the aether. Sometimes also referred to as faster-than-light waves.

That old bird Leedskalnin has long been recognized as a pure kook! He readily admits that he never learned about electricity in school and made up his own ideas about what it was and how it works. Problem is, his version is about as accurate an idea as anything a child of 9 would come with.
I'm sure a lack of education was often levelled at Faraday. It was Faraday's earthy explanations, and his practical experiments with electricity and magnetism which attracted Maxwell.

He also claims to have moved blocks of coral weighing tons using methods that we don't understand. BUT he only did so under the cover of night and would not allow anyone to watch him do it.
Well, we've all done strange things in the middle of the night, haven't we?

If you choose to believe a single word from this proven quack, feel free to do so - but just don't be surprised when everyone considers you a crackpot too.
Perhaps, we are already too late for that.

copied the article but have not read it

have you looked into tesla

that tower was not primary used to transmit energy but use the earth's magnetic field to generate it

moon faces earth 'always' one side because the light going back and forth creates an additional potential...... look up casimir
Hi Bishadi. Thanks, I'll check it out.

I've only recently discovered Tesla. Pure genius. What secret did they bury with that tower?

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