Determinism and the Big Bang

[markl323]

If the Big Bang model is correct, then I think that the outcome of all the events in the universe have already been determined at the beginning of the Big Bang.

It's like detonating a bomb in empty space. It doesn't matter how many you detonate it, assuming you detonate it the exact same way each time, you'll get the same outcome each time (things will be pushed out at the same speed, and finally come to a stop at the same place).

What do you think?

[Dinosaur]

Determinism was killed by Quantum Theory.

[quantum_wave]

It is true that many advocates of quantum theory accept "uncertainty" as fact, at least to the degree that determinism is trumped by the wave function. On the other hand there are dissenting views.

There still are those who believe that an unalterable sequence of events was set in motion at the instant of the Big Bang. Even human thoughts and actions are supposed to be unaffected by the illusion of free will. There are endless sources for reading on the net about a huge variety of thoughts on the subject, and so it is easy to find a link to support any view one might have.

Personally, Big Bang or no Big Bang, determinism and probability are incompatible. Did you ever give someone the "high five"? Think of all of the things that had to go right over the last 13 billion years across mega parsecs of space in order for your hand to meet theirs in an instant in time and at a precise location in space. Then add to that the elaborate physical setting combined with the chance chain of evolutionary events, all coming together at the same time. And then what if you decided not to offer your half of the high five. The high five event didn't happen, and the fact that it was going to be thought about and that it wasn't going to happen was determined 13 billion years ago. Get real.

[iceaura]

A determinism that accounted for the fact that dreams caused dreams and ideas caused ideas, some quantum effects are unpredictable in theory, and chaos amplification requires the influence of the entire universe (including matter currently beyond the Lightspeed Horizon) on everything determined,

would be indistinguishable from free will, in everything - even moral responsibility.

Steven Wolfram has a postulated abstraction of a suitable mechanism for such a determinism, in cellular automata.

[quantum_wave]

I think Wolfram is trying to say that there is a new kind of science. He predicts that there is a simple set of rules that occur over and over to determine complex events and these simple rules replace the uncertainty of complex science and mathematics to explain events.

I don't know enough about his work to know if he is saying that there is no freewill at all, and that the NKS rules are strictly deterministic. Do you know if that is what he is saying?

[Enmos]

I think Wolfram is trying to say that there is a new kind of science. He predicts that there is a simple set of rules that occur over and over to determine complex events and these simple rules replace the uncertainty of complex science and mathematics to explain events.

I don't know enough about his work to know if he is saying that there is no freewill at all, and that the NKS rules are strictly deterministic. Do you know if that is what he is saying?

I like his ideas. Thanks for the link.

[disease]

The BB is deterministic, QM isn't. IOW, the BB is proceeding linearly towards an 'outcome' because of an initial condition, but QM is non-linear, it makes things up (as it "goes").

[quantum_wave]

The BB is deterministic, QM isn't.

That has a ring of truth to it though it seems too clear cut in a way .

IOW, the BB is proceeding linearly towards an 'outcome' because of an initial condition, ...

If that is the complete definition of what determines determinism, then OK, ...

but QM is non-linear, it makes things up (as it "goes").

Again, you have stated it in a clear cut manor. However, I would add that BBT is subject to change over time and that introduces an element of flexibility doesn't it.

Neither concept, BBT or QM, are fixed and final so it is too early to say that they won't be reconciled. But one thing seems certain in my view and that is that determinism will not survive the reconcilliation

[swivel]

I think it is certainly true that at the moment of the BB the range of possible future events was a very, very narrow window.

[cluelusshusbund]

It is true that many advocates of quantum theory accept "uncertainty" as fact, at least to the degree that determinism is trumped by the wave function. On the other hand there are dissenting views.

There still are those who believe that an unalterable sequence of events was set in motion at the instant of the Big Bang. Even human thoughts and actions are supposed to be unaffected by the illusion of free will.

(Pasture Timmy)
I hear people talk about it... but what is "free-will".???

[cluelusshusbund]

There still are those who believe that an unalterable sequence of events was set in motion at the instant of the Big Bang.

(Pasture Timmy)
It ant a beleif of mine but i suspect its true.!!!

Even human thoughts and actions are supposed to be unaffected by the illusion of free will.

(Pasture Timmy)
I suspect that everthang... even "thoughts" have causes.!!!

Did you ever give someone the "high five"? Think of all of the things that had to go right over the last 13 billion years across mega parsecs of space in order for your hand to meet theirs in an instant in time and at a precise location in space.

(Pasture Timmy)
But if thangs didnt work percisely... well... thangs woudnt work so good.!!!

Try to emagin how many thangs that have to work precisely for a computer to work corectly.???

But i still dont know what "free-will" is suposed to be.???

[quantum_wave]

Hello clueluss. You don't know what free will is supposed to be? Don't feel bad. It is like a box of chocolates. You never know if the flavor is real or artificial.

[cluelusshusbund]

Hello clueluss. You don't know what free will is supposed to be? Don't feel bad. It is like a box of chocolates. You never know if the flavor is real or artificial.

(Pasture Timmy)
Hi quantum wave...
Reguardless of whether you know or not... the flavor IS 1 or the other... an i highly suspect ther was a chane of events that determined whch it is.!!!

[cluelusshusbund]

Neither concept, BBT or QM, are fixed and final so it is too early to say that they won't be reconciled. But one thing seems certain in my view and that is that determinism will not survive the reconcilliation

(Pasture Timmy)
Is QM the suposed magick that gives us "free-will" (what ever that is suposed to be).???

[quantum_wave]

No, that supposed magic might be "consciousness" though. I don't think free will is active unless consciousness is active, and that requires a conscious life form. There is a connection though between QM and life so on that basis I could agree that QM and consciousness are linked and therefore QM and free will are linked.

[cluelusshusbund]

No, that supposed magic might be "consciousness" though. I don't think free will is active unless consciousness is active, and that requires a conscious life form. There is a connection though between QM and life so on that basis I could agree that QM and consciousness are linked and therefore QM and free will are linked.

So what is "free-will"... bein able to make an un-influenced choise.???

[theoneiuse]

I think Wolfram is trying to say that there is a new kind of science. He predicts that there is a simple set of rules that occur over and over to determine complex events and these simple rules replace the uncertainty of complex science and mathematics to explain events.

I don't know enough about his work to know if he is saying that there is no freewill at all, and that the NKS rules are strictly deterministic. Do you know if that is what he is saying?

For this is the age of change where the suppressive dogmatic sciences and religions will be left behind. You are one amongst many with the potential to create the massive paradigm shift needed for those of your kind to prosper. You must not look at the lines, but in between them that is where you will find matter conclusion 2=1 for you will find you and Mr. Wolfram are discussing the same thing from different angles of view. For divine order is the greatest insurance policy.

[gluon]

Determinism was killed by Quantum Theory.

No it was not. You should read up on Pilot Wave Theory.

[gluon]

No, that supposed magic might be "consciousness" though. I don't think free will is active unless consciousness is active, and that requires a conscious life form. There is a connection though between QM and life so on that basis I could agree that QM and consciousness are linked and therefore QM and free will are linked.

Yes i agree. Not only could free-will be illusory, but the very act of choice may be determined as well. Even though it seems contradictory, the ability of choice maybe just as magically-false as our ability to see a past and a future.

[quantum_wave]

Just to be clear, if you agree with me, then you would insist that we have free will.

What was said earlier about finding web pages to support any position is true. Pilot Wave Theory is an example (why don't you provide a link when you reference a topic?). Now where have I found anything in PWT that is convincing me that determinism is true. On the other hand, nowhere in QM have I found anything that is convincing me that free will is true. And yet you have people trying to prove their position on the subject by referencing theories as if their particular interpretation of the theory somehow made their position on the subject true.

As near as I can tell there are no definitive answers as to whether determinism or free will are true. However, in this case, determinism seems so absurd to me that I have to wonder what agenda people are following if they promote it. Does anybody know if there are agendas dedicated to promoting determinism and what the larger agendas are?