Why do groups tolerate obnoxious alphas?

**visceral_instinct** · 01-18-09, 03:59 PM

Why do groups of people tend to tolerate antisocial or disrespectful behaviour from their most dominant member? There are generally enough of them that they could pull him/her into line if they wanted to.

**Betrayer0fHope** · 01-18-09, 06:21 PM

Why would they? You disagree with someone, you move on in life. I'm not gonna get into trouble with my organization because I'm conspiring to take down our leader.

**S.A.M.** · 01-18-09, 06:25 PM

Most people are followers and expect to follow orders, alphas dominate because they make the decisions.

**cosmictraveler** · 01-18-09, 08:01 PM

I don't let anyone be obnoxious to me and I will tell them to cut it out or else I will leave. I really dislike it when someone tries to get uppity as well.

**S.A.M.** · 01-18-09, 08:05 PM

Weren't you in the armed services? How did that pan out?

**cosmictraveler** · 01-18-09, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Weren't you in the armed services? How did that pan out?

No one pissed me off while I was in the service to much and the few that did I just I asked them to stop and they did....at least with me. Seems assholes just try to find those who will take their crap from them, pity.

**S.A.M.** · 01-18-09, 08:17 PM

Sounds quite strange, from my brief stint with soldiers. I suppose you work for yourself?

**cosmictraveler** · 01-18-09, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Sounds quite strange, from my brief stint with soldiers. I suppose you work for yourself?

Not at all . I was under thr SAC branch of the USAF and took orders from many people with higher rank. It is just back when I was in there weren';t many assholes becauise they were dismissed, moved, or just discharged .

**Fraggle Rocker** · 01-18-09, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

Why do groups of people tend to tolerate antisocial or disrespectful behaviour from their most dominant member? There are generally enough of them that they could pull him/her into line if they wanted to.

You don't seem to understand the whole concept of "alpha." Alphas give conscious and unconscious cues that cause the other individuals in the pack to instinctively subordinate themselves. All pack-social species employ the alpha instinct, it's the only way a cohesive pack can be formed that will work together.

In dogs, we have selectively bred them to tone down the alpha instinct and also make it rarer. That was necessary to ensure that dogs will always regard humans as alphas. Only about one dog in 100 has a strong alpha personality, which is a much lower ratio than in wolves, who are a different population of the same species. Although in some breeds it's higher. In our Lhasa Apsos it's more like 99 out of 100. You put together a pack of Lhasas and there will be a lot of fighting for dominance. Especially the females.

**visceral_instinct** · 01-19-09, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Fraggle Rocker

You don't seem to understand the whole concept of "alpha." Alphas give conscious and unconscious cues that cause the other individuals in the pack to instinctively subordinate themselves. All pack-social species employ the alpha instinct, it's the only way a cohesive pack can be formed that will work together.

In dogs, we have selectively bred them to tone down the alpha instinct and also make it rarer. That was necessary to ensure that dogs will always regard humans as alphas. Only about one dog in 100 has a strong alpha personality, which is a much lower ratio than in wolves, who are a different population of the same species. Although in some breeds it's higher. In our Lhasa Apsos it's more like 99 out of 100. You put together a pack of Lhasas and there will be a lot of fighting for dominance. Especially the females.

I can understand that, but surely there is a limit to how much someone will respond to a cue to be subordinate?

Why is it that even when someone is incessantly being racist and homophobic, for example, social values do not override the instinct to be loyal to the alpha member?

**Enmos** · 01-19-09, 05:44 AM

Originally Posted by S.A.M.

Most people are followers and expect to follow orders, alphas dominate because they make the decisions.

Exactly. And the rest are afraid to stand up to the now dominant group.

**visceral_instinct** · 01-19-09, 05:51 AM

What if you are neither follower nor alpha at heart...

I know if I'm with a group I have a strong instinct to be loyal to them, but on the other hand if someone is being an ass or picking on another member, I'll read him/her the riot act and I don't care if he/she is the alpha.

Am I an anomaly?

**Enmos** · 01-19-09, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

What if you are neither follower nor alpha at heart...

I know if I'm with a group I have a strong instinct to be loyal to them, but on the other hand if someone is being an ass or picking on another member, I'll read him/her the riot act and I don't care if he/she is the alpha.

Am I an anomaly?

No, you're not an anomaly.
There is not much point going against the established picking order I suppose, unless you can rally your own army

I strongly dislike groups by the way. I don't want to be part of any.

**~~draqon~~** · 01-19-09, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

Why do groups of people tend to tolerate antisocial .....behaviour from their most dominant member?

Alpha members are defined by their social behavior. They cannot be anti-social.

**visceral_instinct** · 01-19-09, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Enmos

No, you're not an anomaly.
There is not much point going against the established picking order I suppose, unless you can rally your own army

I strongly dislike groups by the way. I don't want to be part of any.

I tend to do it anyway. I like to be loyal, but not at the price of being a sheep.

I don't dislike them, but I do very much dislike some of the instincts that being in a group brings out in people.

**Enmos** · 01-19-09, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

I tend to do it anyway. I like to be loyal, but not at the price of being a sheep.

That seems like a contradiction. Isn't being loyal pretty much being a sheep ?

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

I don't dislike them, but I do very much dislike some of the instincts that being in a group brings out in people.

That's part of why I dislike groups.

**~~draqon~~** · 01-19-09, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by visceral_instinct

I like to be loyal, but not at the price of being a sheep.

That is illogical, it is a contradiction. One cannot be "loyal" yet not be a "sheep".

**~~draqon~~** · 01-19-09, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by Enmos

That's part of why I dislike groups.

Yet you are in this group. A group called Sciforums.

**cosmictraveler** · 01-19-09, 06:31 AM

Anyone can "go their own way" if they so choose. I've known many people who did just as they wanted to, some joined a commune, another became a biker and yet one more was a aid worker in Africa. So you need no army to go out on your own but always remember there is going to be someone you'll have to seek help from every now and then.