It's hardly necessary to illustrate the end result of the integration of religion and politics. Or, it should be. But another prod won't hurt anyone. Please to enjoy. No conflict in the family? Well, not when a swat in the head will do, anyway. But it's of note that Indonesia is prosecuting at least.
She's still not 16, so they can't have sex even if she is menstruating. But is she even married if 'nikah siri' is not a recognised marriage? What if the parents agree, but she later complains to authorities that they had sex? Its just plain dumb. Let the girls be children while they can in the full view of the law.
Geez, I don't know ....but things like this keep making me wonder ....When are we ever going to learn to mind our own business? Baron Max
True. If Mohammed were an intelligent man, he'd have recognized the implications of his actions and instead have acted with foresight and adopted Aisha as his daughter. But that's just it, Mohammad wasn't a philosopher. Even Muslims agree he only repeated what "God" told him - a voice in his head. It doesn't take too many brain cells to do that, I've seen parakeets do it too. As to Baron's point, I don't know, what do you think about Slavery? Should we leave people to practice this as well? M
Well, I don't know. Saddam Hussy was basically keeping his people in slavery in Iraq, and now they're not. But there's sure a helluva lot of people that seem to want us to pull out and let the "insurgents" take over and make slaves out of them again. So, ...you tell me. We got rid of slavery in the USA, and with that righteous act, it might have created an even worse problem for the USA in hatred, prejudice, racism, poverty, crime, ...and a whole host of other problems. So, ....now what? I think the part of it all that bothers me the most is ....just when and how we should stick our noses into the affairs of others. I don't like people sticking their noses in my business. Do you like it when people try to tell you what to do? Baron Max
Some good points. I suppose it depends on, I mean, I think we can at least chose not to do business with people. I think that's fair enough. Michael
Why should he have done that? Aisha was not a child. I suppose you're right, in a sense. He wasn't just a philosopher; he was Prophet, a statesman, an orator, a legislator, a warrior, and a philosopher all in one. Do you honestly think it is that easy to genuinely make another person believe in your newfound religion? Let alone an entire nation? Let's see you try. You're Australian/American, right? Why don't you convince your entire nation into accepting your unique faith within the time you read this message, to the moment you die. After all, even a parakeet could do it, right? Was America invaded by a foreign nation under the pretense of "freeing the slaves"? Or was the abolishment of slavery a verdict issued by Americans themselves? Meddling in the affairs of other nations is the factor driving your pitiful empire into an inescapable hole. What happened to the pacifist Michael I knew? The Michael who only supported a two-week campaign in Afghanistan? Where has he gone? The Michael before me supports policing the world. Kadark
Oh, oh, a topic about my country. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! To you all who have label child marriage as pedophile act or religiously recommended act, I'd like to clarify it. Child marriage, particularly in Indonesia, is not merely religious thing, it's used to be a culture. Until my mum generation, child marriage has been always practiced widely. An unmarried woman above 20 years old would be considered odd, not just muslim women, but any women. This has not changed much except in urban areas where people are more focus on getting complete education before they are started to get married. Eventhough so, it is very common that after finishing high school people are getting married and raising 1-2 children while they are studying in University. People in my country are suggested to get married early to avoid zinna (sexual act outside of marriage) and prostitution, so yes it's kind of religious thing as well. One may considered child marriage as pedophile act, but the fact is, once a couple enter a marriage, it would mostly last for whole life. There are life long responsibilities tied to it. Many parents especially poor people favor their daughters to be married early so that their daughters will be financialy secure. This is a backward thinking, but if everybody are happy, I don't see what is the problem. In addition to that, married there is not only just between a man and a woman, but between two related families, to strengthen family bonds. In case of Muhammad, I think this was the same. Historically Muhammad was the best friend of Abu Bakar As-Sidiq, the father of Aisha. Abu Bakar was the first person who became Muslim after Muhammad become a prophet. The marriage was to strengthen the bond between two families, just as the case in my country, I completely understand that. My country is religious, it's relatively true. Yesterday the parliament has just pass the bill of anti-pornography act, read here in BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7700150.stm So starting yesterday, any images, gestures or talk deemed to be pornographic warrant up to 12 years in prison and hefty fines. Now you will say that it is an ill act or whatnot. The fact is that, with high influence of western media, pornography has becoming very uncontrolable. Entertainer on TV would just wear skin-like clothing and dance erotically. Sometimes they are also dancing in mall shopping centers where kids can freely watch, it's so so disgusting Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I am happy that now people would have to think 1000 times before they are doing such thing. I hope that they will start to concentrate in improving their education or skill and look for dignified job.
Inzomnia I'm sorry, but what? The legal age of marriage in your country is 16, correct? So why then is this individual looking to marry a child under the legal age? Again.. what??? I need to ask, what could be his motive for marrying children who are so young? Let me get this straight.. he is a wealthy individual who chooses to marry children who come from very poor families?.. Hmmm.. Talk about taking advantage of a situation, don't you think? If he cared about the welfare of the children and wanted to ensure they and their families had it a bit easier in life, he could donate to them or their village.. you know.. charity.. But instead he chooses to marry a child? And then he states that it is somehow ok because the 12 year old has reached puberty? Ermmm.. what the hell? What about the 7 and 9 year old's he plans to marry? Does that mean he's planning on having sex with said 12 year old? After all, if she's reached puberty, she could start popping out his offspring. And again, what about the 7 and 9 year old girls he plans to marry? You are talking about girls who are in high school. 7 year old girls are not in high school but are just that.. 7 year old girls. Attempting to excuse it by saying it is a means to stop them from having sex before marriage is, well, for lack of a better term.. insane. As for strengthening the bond between the two families.. Does it really look that way to you? To me it looks like he's a pervert who's using his money and position to pay off the families so that he is allowed to marry these little girls.
Bells, it may be a legal age for marriage, but its treated like a suggested age for marriage. Its similar in India, where most girls are married off early. Older people believe that its better for the marriage if girls get acquainted with the family early. But this guy is from Singapore, so whether he is an Indonesian "going home" to get married or just a creep, is hard to say. But its not at all uncommon. In fact, girls getting married after 16 is more uncommon. http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/india.php And its been illegal in India since 1929. But what are they going to do. Put half the country behind bars? http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/06/01/news/india.php It looks that way to you because you're from a different culture. Most of the people consider it a way to strengthen the bond between families. Previously they used to swap children, ie a brother of the bride marrying a sister of the groom, because this ensured that they would all treat each other well.
You know how it looks to me? It looks like he's a pervert who has found a way to exploit poor families to fulfill his sexual desires for female children. Do you know why it looks that way to me, Sam? Yes.. That really looks like he was attempting to 'strengthen the bonds between the families'. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So is it the norm for rich old men to hold contests in poor areas to pick a child bride? Says it all, doesn't it?
Bells, I couldn't say it better, it is what SAM's said. That was the case in Indonesia as well. Even now, many people still prefer arranged marriage (but not anymore with the sister/brother in law one). I might add here, marriage is also still perceived as achievement, so people try to get married as young as possible. Me also, in case things don't go well with my current bf (which will likely so because we have different religion although my parent is quite tolerant), I would ask my parent to look for me, because they will know for sure the family background of the future husband beside all other factors (education level, etc). This is common in Asia, love will come after marriage (alright, you will argue with that, but that is what is generally perceived at home country).
Yes. Arrest this pervert and throw him in jail... That should be an educational point for other pedophiles who wish to use their religion to marry little girls.
:bawl: I can't believe you're trying to excuse this. This wasn't an arranged marriage. He held a competition in which little girls competed to become his wife. His excuse after the details became known was that she had reached puberty. She is 12 years of age. Even the religious leaders in your country are not condoning this, saying that minors should not be made to marry... that it is irresponsible and dangerous to the child for them to marry so young. Surely you are not claiming that it is somehow common in Asia for rich men to hold competition amongst little girls, with the winner becoming his wife? We both know that is not common at all. What is common is that a child is promised to a man and when she reaches a reasonable age, the arranged marriage takes place. That is not the case in this instance. In this particular case, a rich religious cleric used his position and his wealth to obtain a child bride by means that were, in every single sense of the word, absolutely disgusting. He bought that child from her parents and he plans on marrying a 7 and a 9 year old.
Your tolerance, understanding and compassion is admirable, Bells. Can't help wondering, Bells, ...why do you think it's any of your business? Baron Max
About the same as you seem to think it's your business to comment on me Baron.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
How do you know he's a pervert? Ideas about marriage differ from culture to culture. In the west, people think of romantic love as a basis for marriage. In Asian countries its a social institution and has more to do with who will make a good addition to the family unit, care for parents, look after the husband and current or future children, etc. You cannot punish people for doing things differently, essentially, they have been doing it for centuries and it works for them [low divorce rates, stable family units, stable community, enhanced social support systems]. The kind of change we want to bring about is because we think what they are doing is wrong, not because they think it. Imposing your social values on someone else is as acceptable as having their values imposed on you. I don't think arresting him will have any effect. The reason why the parents are marrying off their daughter to a foreign resident could be because they feel they are being forced to accept values that they do not want. In the long run, this is more disadvantageous for parents and can end in girls being sold off for prostitution by unscrupulous men. Much better to educate the people and let them make the decisions. Thats called swayamvara [literally, my choice]. Its also an Asian custom. Often the girl has the choice, sometimes the men do. Its considered a very exciting prospect. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swayamvara
