Is Republican Ideology inverse Midas touch?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    The concept is from this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=86536

    In short do republicans fuck everything up? Billy T thinks he can give an argument why and I would love to hear it and cheer from the side: "B I L L Y _ T, what that spell, GOOOooooo BILLY T!"
     
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Their ideology over the last 25 years has destroyed the middle class, thus deepening the gap between the rich and the poor, so yes, their ideology both economically and socially are fundamentally flawed. This idea that giving break after break to corporations will somehow benefit the average American (trickle down) is false. In today's truly global economy (we have proof of that now) companies are going to go wherever they can get the cheapest labor and the least amount of taxes and restrictions. Unfortunately, there are plenty of places in this world that fit the bill, and nothing we do for those companies here will make them change their practices.

    The answer is more towards the center, though at this point we've been forced to turn Socialist to prevent another depression.
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Now this is just a null hypothesis here, but what if it just a coincidence, what if our economic failings of the last 25+ years are do to problems outside the control of or not being address anywhere near adequately by either party. For example I read the oil drum and have the idea that once america could not continue its 1940-1960 economic boom once its demand for oil outstripped its supply, so our economy has been limited in growth ever since until now when the whole world's demand for oil is outstripping supply and now demand is being kept just below supply limits by "coincidentally" world economies coming to a screeching halt. Both parties barely even touched the issue, mind you republicans simply ignored it with "drill baby drill" despite the fact that there is not enough down there nor is it cheap anymore to pull it up, but the democrats did not really care that much either, during the Clinton term, precious years were wasted away fucking an intern, and Carter simply provided lip service to alternatives will finding new cocks to suck other then OPEC for our Oil fix, in fact the only democrat that seriously cared about the issue never got elected president (Al Gore) and he only show real serious opinions on it long after failure, thanks douche, why did you not say it than?
     
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  7. White Rhyno Registered Member

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    Nien. Just look at Reagan. The nation was better at then end of his first term than at the beginning of his first term.
     
  8. OilIsMastery Banned Banned

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    There is no Republican ideology anymore. That's why some Conservatives are voting for Obama.
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Yes of course its now divided into
    1. Libertarians that just don't relies they are libertarians.
    2. Libertarians that simply can't handle be call libertarians.
    3. Christian fundamentalist that huff to much glue.
     
  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I'm not saying both parties don't deserve blame for the economy today, because they both do. But overall, the philosophies of the Conservatives has only served to make the rich richer and the middle class poor. They don't believe in preserving the balance; rather, they believe in this pipe dream that capitalism and the free market can last forever and never fail on their own. Remember, even when the country at large was doing well under Regan, he was killing our middle class. Aside from eight years of Clinton, average Americans have been getting kicked around by Conservative ideals.

    Also, we could have been looking into alternative energy sources the whole time. Nothing was out of our control.

    And the way this economy works the best is by regulating the market to the point where big companies can't put themselves in a position to go bankrupt. Why? Because if we let them, we end up giving them billions of dollars so they don't go bankrupt. We've essentially allowed the biggest companies to get so big that they can't fail without crippling us. That kind of mentality has to end.

    EDIT: Let me clarify...when I say "So they can't go bankrupt", I simply mean not giving them the incentive or the ability to be so risky with no sense of responsibility to themselves or the economy. I am not condoning the bailout, or saying that big companies can't go bankrupt...I'm just saying that we can't let them behave the way the have.
     
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Blue below is from post 131 of the other thread which gave rise to this one, I said:

    The rapid decrease in sales desribed in yesterday's beige book and FED etc. releases will force many big and small firms to reduce employment. The "trickle down" policy of the Republicans & GWB's other stupid policies have caused the buying power of Joe American's salary to steadily decrease. For a few years, Joe compensated wiith credit card charges to avoid tighten his belt (foolish I agree, but not as foolish as re-electing GWB).

    Now that and using increasing home value (refinancing with net cash out) IS NOT an option; SALES WILL DROP. More jobs will be lost. GWB and the Rebulicans have dug such a deep hole that Obama will not be able to avoid the coming depression I have forecast for some years now. I am just glad the start of it is while GWB is still in office.

    To help the US, the money should have gone to Joe, Not Daddy Warbucks. He invested it in new factories in China and other economies for greater returns than were available in the US. Republican funds and tax breaks did "trickle down" - to China etc. and made more jobs leave the US. (Even some of the richer Republicans are moving out of the US, typically to the multi million dollar homes being built in Dubai, not China.) US is now in a self-accelerating downward spiral to depression. ..."


    Perhaps a better starting point for this thread would to try to define the "Republican Ideology" at least where it differs significantly from the "Democratic Ideology." I do not feel qualified to speak for the Republicans so will just take what seems to be the agreed differences between Obama and McCain in the thrid debate, last night as a starting point, but note that McCain is at pains to be separating himself for the more right wing part of the Republican Ideology.

    For, example: John calls Wall Street "greedy" and complains about the lack of regulation, wants to help "Joe the Plumber" now and limit the CEO bonuses, golden parachutes, etc. John is now proud to claim a wide gap (true or not) between himself and more traditionalRebublicans. He even (now) wants to change the "failed policies of the last eight years." This "MaCain 2" is quite different from the anti-regulation, free-market man, "McCain 1," who served 26 years in Congress in his economic ideas. McCain has been a "mavrick Republican" in many other areas (especially campaign reform, limiting powerful lobbies, and blocking unrelated "earmark" funding added to most bills) but quite conventionally Rebublican in the economic areas, until recently breaking with GWB there.

    John is just a little late in realizing that the correct answer to this thread's question is "Yes." That said, here is what I suggest distingusihes the two ideologies economicially (Lets agree to leave social / regligious issues out of the thread, even though the "Christian right" is very solidly Republican.):

    Education funding:
    R - Should be by the local community as do not want the control that federal funds provide. Most the FG should do is provide vochers to all (no discrimination / entitlements) and let the free market competition improve the schools.

    D - FG must step in to fund when the local community can not afford so all have good educational opertunities. Vocheers given out in these poor neighborhoods can be part of the means, but FG should provide nearly free schooling to teachers who agree to server where needed when they graduate for X (to be determined) years.

    Taxation & reform of it
    R - Current system ~OK, but if changed perhaps a flat tax to make more simple. For times requiring stimnualtion: help businesses big and small to make them more competive / create jobs. ("Trickle Down" theory)

    D - Current system needs to eliminate all the special rules lobbyist have gotten included, and perhaps more progressive to tax more those who can afford to pay more. (Defense costs are protecting their wealth mainly - they should pay for it. etc.) For times requiring stimnualtion: tax rebates to the lower classes as they will spend it in the USA, not save it or invest in China / Dubai etc.

    Health Care (Both are for making it more efficient via better records in computers, and right to chose your doctor.)
    R - Keep FG out of it, except for credits on taxes etc. Keep Choice by letting people seek health insurance policy nation wide. Let drug companies charge as they see fit but subject to competion (after patents expire) so they have funds for development of better drugs etc.

    D - FG to make default coverage plan (the same one Congress has) for the unemployed and/or workers may remain with their employeer's plan. If large employers do not provide a plan, fine them until providing one is more attractive economically. Limit what drug comnpaines can charge by encouraging generics, mass purchases by the govenment plan, and imports for places like Canada, etc. Give FG grants for reseach in areas targeted and "orphen durg" status protection from competition. (As now done for both.)

    These three above seem to be the main economic issues dividing D-Obama & R - McCain, but there are R - POVs to the right of McCain and D - POVs to the left of Obama.

    McCain is more inclinded to be critical of the current Paulson recovery plan and has ofered some alternatives that in part resemble the one I offered* several weeks ago in that he wants FG to take over failing mortgages (at full cost) in stead of buy the "toxiic trash" that has many good preforming mortgages in it. I also admire McCain having the balls to state even in Iowa, that subsidies for corn based alcohol and the import duties on tropical alcohol should be killed.

    What this thread needs, if to become interesting, is one or more Republicans who will answer the thread's question with "No" and support that reply.
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    *His staff recieved my plan more than two weeks ago (as did Obama's) while I was banned, but perhaps McCain's staff is not as swamped with Eamils and it actually got thru them to him or to some close advisors. Soon a link here to the lates version it. My plan also calls for strong punishment to prevent repetition, but I can understand why McCain is not while still trying to get both votes and money from some I would send to Jail.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2008
  12. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    Like OilIsMastery said, there is no Republican ideology. It's a hodgepodge of culture war issues and conservative rhetoric that shifts as it needs to to become a Democrat foil, and not to become an intelligent and attractive argument for conservative governance. I'm a conservative, and the current Republican party just doesn't represent me.
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I agree. That is why I just suggested we limit the thread's discussion to the economic effects of differenecs expressed clearly in the 3d debate. I.e. I think McCain has the "trickle down" and the "let freemarket provide medical care" etc ideas of the main stream Republicans so that a case can be made (as I did in blue text) that this has hurt Joe American. So much that a "Yes" answer can be defended. I.e. the US had a 70% consumer oriented economy and now it is dead because Joe American has been screwed by these Republican ideas too much to sustain it any longer.

    Trickle down built the factories in China that killed Joe's job and Good Republican Paulson's wanted to give the banks cash without any string on how it was used (FG strings are an anit R -POV) so it will just build resorts in Dubai* etc. He does not even have power to force them to lend it out - some will just use it to improve their balance when the end of 2008 reports come out!

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    * I own stock in GLDD (Great Lakes Dredging and Drydock). Much of their equipment is currently about to arrive in the Gulf, especially for dredging the "palm finger" island resort land the multi-million dollar homes are to be built on (each with dock for your yacht). In the just concluded Housing fair, plans for a 94 billion dollar resort city were announced as well as the Kilometer high building (the world largest is already going up there and that is where the world's only 7 star holtel is with gold door knobes etc. - You need escort and appointment to even visit and rooms are all at least $1000/ night.) - Yes trickle down works - just not for Joe American.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2008
  14. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    I thought it was China's supposed ease of starting a business, lax regulations and low taxes that led to factories that killed Joe's job?

    A lot of McCain's positions that you listed don't stand up to liberal counterarguments because they're not conservative enough. You can't argue for half assed conservatism. He wants to discourage extra involvement of the FG in health care? What about reducing current involvement? He's against FG involvement in schools? How can that coexist with his vote for No Child Left Behind? And there's no way he can have a good tax solution that's conservative without addressing how he's going to reduce federal spending and the size of government, something that no one believes he'll do, especially after voting for a pork filled $850b bailout.
     
  15. kmguru Staff Member

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    "Trickle down built the factories in China that killed Joe's job"

    That is the crux of the matter. Unless that is solved...no matter who comes to power...the economy is not going anywhere fast....and spending on government jobs would not solve it either....
     
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I do not know much about those things for China. In Brazil there is a great set of hoops to jump thru to open even a small business - why so much is done by street venders and the "informal economy" is as large as the formal one.) But lets assume you are correct. (Even though I doubt it is the case that it is as easy to setup new business in China as in the US.) There is an index telling how long is the delay to open a new business in various countries - get all the permits etc. -It is about half a year in Brazil as I recall but do not remember what it is called for you to find it.

    The esential item for all new business is the start up capital, be than just stocking the shelves prior to opening day or buying many million dollar machines tools for your factory. Some of that capital (part owned by China) came from their trade balance but direct investment was much larger and more important as it included technical skills. For example, the Chinese Banking system, state run, was a mess. So finally the CCP leadership threw in the towel and asked western banks to come in - allowing some local banks to even pass to be completely contolled by Western ones. Can you imagine how hard that was for the "face" of the CCP people to admit they needed help from western bankers?

    I agree and same is true of Obama. As I said: there is a lot of room to the right of McCain and to the left of Obama. Some voting for Obama will be holding their nose as he thinks capitalism can be saved when they know only state ownership can avoid the excesses of capitalism.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2008
  17. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Why is it only state ownership? Can we not simply regulate the hell out of the market to ensure that Americans have to work really hard to fuck themselves up in the debt department? Why is that not an option?
     
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Simple, they are stealing. It only looks like a fuck up from our point of view, from theirs, everything is going great, except of course when economic collapse makes reelection impossible. If they had a better candidate and a lucky break with a terrorist attack or something, they might still retain power...

    I think of the analogy of fishing. Republicans just want to catch it all as fast as possible in a big net without any concern for the future. Democrats believe in fishing too, but it must be careful and regulated or we kill the source of the fish.
     
  19. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    You're making this more complex than it needs to be. Don't want there to be too much debt? Don't encourage people to get into debt. Tax laws that reward home ownership and punish renting, reward spending and punish saving, a Fed that's kept artificially low interest rates for years (Alan Greenspan himself encouraged people to get into the housing market post 9/11), a government that tells its people to spend spend spend, OF COURSE individuals and businesses are going to go into massive debt! Wall Street fucked up in a major way, yes, but that's a symptom and not a cause. Aim your guns at the Fed and the government that went along with it's easy credit policies.
     
  20. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    I think the difference is that Obama can at least make a convincing argument for moving left, especially after 30 years of Republican fuck-uppery, without having to go as left as some would like him to. McCain doesn't have that option with respect to moving right.
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Possible it is: In fact that was what I advocated for many years as I thought (and still do) that there needs to be an incentive to work. Does not need to be large monetary one - Respect of the community served well instead back in simpler times. I.e the plumber may have made more than the local saw bones* (GP doctor) but did not get as much respect even though he too provided essential service to the community. I.e. brain skills have usually been thought more of than physical skills or sales abilities.

    Unfortuntately, a lot of those brain skill have been turned to making money rather than serving the community. So now if insurance is too tightly regulated: requires the policies be back by significant equity; then sell insurance but call it "debt swaps" to escape from the regulations. Then you can (and they did) have less than 3% equity backing the insurance sold that promissed to protect against mortgage defaults (and 3% default rate bankrupted some at the start of a chain that is still growing, it seems).
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    *My father was a respected one in the hills of West Virginia. We never wanted for venison in deer season, some bacon, produce, eggs, and jars of pickles etc. but at times cash was short. If the car got a flat, someone would stop and change the tire - "Wernt sutable for the Doc to do that."
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2008
  22. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    See Republican Trickle Down in action in Dubai:

    "...The U.S. Treasury's pledge to inject $250 billion into banks may coax private-equity leaders Stephen Schwarzman, David Rubenstein and Henry Kravis to resume investing after more than a year spent mostly on the sidelines. The founders of Blackstone Group LP, Carlyle Group and KKR & Co. LP told investors in Dubai this week that the biggest government intervention in the financial system since the 1930s will help attract private capital to lenders. The U.S. plan, following similar steps by Britain and other nations, may lead to investments of tens of millions dollars, ..."

    From: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aTUlNWQDzKyg&refer=home

    One new city project just announced in Dubai will cost 94 billion! At same "cityscape" fair, the plans for a kilometer high building were also revield. (World's tallest building is already being built in Dubai, but it fame will be short lived if the new one is constructed.) Only 7 star hotel* , with gold door knobs etc and >$1000/ night roon rates has been operating in Dubai for several years. Much of Joe American's $700 billion bailout will end up building resorts and multi-million dollar, water front, homes** there and in other still expanding economies. - Sad but true. It must get much worse before the Republicans drop their failed trickle down ideology. The depression should cause that, if they fail in the effort to blame it all on Obama.

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    *See details and photos at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_al-Arab
    Also see movie about 2/3 done world's largest building and over view of Dubai at:
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/949045/worlds_tallest_building

    **GWB will not be able to retire to his Texas ranch. I bet he ends up in one of the multi-million dollars homes with water front and a yacht tied to the dock now being built by the hundreds every year in Dubai and other oil rich gulf states. He belongs in a Texas (or equally bad) jail - being an unregistered agent for Saudi Arabia is a crime.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2008
  23. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Billy T,

    Interesting fact, you know why Michael Jackson has moved to Dubai, so he can raped little boys in peace

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    In Dubai as long as you stay out of the Muslim public eyes you can do anything you want, being your rich enough that is.
     

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