Okay, who can give me some links to some sort of evidence that JFC (Jesus Fuggin Christ, in Australian) actually existed? Now, I don't want "I once heard of..." or "But the bible says...!" Give me links to pictures and translations of 2,000 year old documents proving JFC rented a camel at Bob's Used Camels or something. Give me ANY evidence to support his existence.
I'm not going to claim to know a lot about these sources, but here are a few things I do know: "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease." - Flavius Josephus (a Roman) wrote this in his book on the history of the Jewish people. However, he wrote it 93 years after Jesus died. "Nero fastened the guilt...on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome..." - Tacitus (Roman historian) writes after Nero decides to blame Christians on the fire burning Rome 64 years after Jesus' death. "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald." - Found in the Talmud, guessed to be written between 70 and 200 years after Jesus' death. Basically, there are a number of accounts written by people who were not born when Jesus lived. No one until 64 years after he died.
I wouldn't even assume tht no such man as Yeshua (tht's the real name) existed, because 1. I buy those 64 years after Yeshuas death. it's not a so big time distance 2. I wouldn't assume tht a whole religion later was created with no starting person. Of course tht person was a phylosopher, maybe a weird wandered, but nonthereless he existed. He did no miracles, maybe was a doctor. But then it was a time when people needed a messiah so they saw one where there was none- maybe only a lone phylosopher. cheers!
When it comes down to it, we just have to trust people for telling the truth, regarding anything. Because if we didn't we would have to examine exactly everything ourselves, devote our entire lives just to prove if what someone said was right or wrong. Imagine if you had total disbelief in others, what would your life be like? In order to believe what the newspapers said you would have to travel around the world every day to see for yourself. Photographies can be trusted anymore. And if you are scientifically inclined you would have to repeat all investigations and experiments yourself to believe them.
Actually, I think he wrote it in 93 ad, and historically, Jesus' death most likely occured anywhere from 26 to 36 ad. So it was about 60 years. I accept the Josephan references. Tacitus probably does not provide independent historical confirmation here. More likely than not, he was reporting what Christians at the time were saying. References from the Talmud about Jesus are highly suspect and historians do not generally believe much can be gleaned from them about Jesus. Historically I find the evidence beyond contestation if we throw in one or both of Josephus' alleged references. Its still very good if we just use multiple attestation, embarrasment and look for the earliest possible stratum in the canonized gospels. of course, none of this means he was born of a virgin, rose from the dead etc.
Historical, historically, blah blah blah. Show me some of this "history". I want evidence, not claims. No offence, I just want to see something solid.
Adam, then what you need is a time machinePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If you get hold of one, remember to invite me too, ancient history is one of those thngs I'm most interesed in.
Point well taken ilg. Beb, you're wrong though. We don't have to take people's word for it on news today the same as we do for the Bible. If that was true, then every Christian and Jew should be a Moslem as Islam claims it is the next step, right? Anyway, there is a distinct difference between a single source from 2000 years ago with nothing to back it up and every news station in the world picking up a story at the same time with video footage.
If you imagine all the prophets, "wise" men, and zealots who claimed to be "messiah" throughout history (Jesus was not the only one) the reason we know Jesus out of all of the others is because he substantiated his claims (with miracles, and fulfilled prophecy, and rising from the dead). That is why one third the population of Earth claim him as God, and most of the rest at least know of him. As you know modern Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth as the messiah. They are still waiting for Messiah to come. Throughout history there were those who came forward and claim to be the messiah predicted in the old testement. However... none of them were. (No miracles either). It isn't easy founding the largest religion on Earth. Especially without benefit of truth and reality. If Jesus was just another crackpot lunatic, he would have been duly forgotten and cast out onto the junkpile of history like all the other "false Messiahs". Here is a great link that gives examples of history's false messiahs: http://www.godwithus.org/israels_false_messiahs.html -Mike
if someone from our time came to the stone age with all the nowaday knowledge , he would be claimed as the god himself (not any son). maybe Yeshua was a doctor/phylosopher. what do you know. but he was quite advanced for that slum crowd he was living with.
Can you PLEASE show me some of this substantiation to the claims about JFC? Anything? You say it exists; where is it?
Adam: "Historical, historically, blah blah blah. Show me some of this "history". I want evidence, not claims. No offence, I just want to see something solid." What sort of evidence? Straw from the manger? Wood from the Cross? John the Baptist's head? The Apostle Paul's foreskin? What about an indulgence? Elkie: Still making stupid, unsubstantiated claims, I see. "If Jesus was just another crackpot lunatic, he would have been duly forgotten and cast out onto the junkpile of history like all the other "false Messiahs"." You're right! And since Mohammed claimed the title of Prophet, and millions followed him, Islam must be the correct religion!
I have seen photographs of commercial deals on clay tablets and such from more than 2,500 years ago. I have seen skeletons scores of millions of years old. I have seen photographs of 6,000 art. Evidence of activities from those times exists. Is there nothing which supports the existence of this JFC apart from stories written after the supposed time?
A record of his trial? Not happening. If the above does not convince you, nothing will. But then, the same paucity of evidence exists for Prince Siddharma, Muhammed, Hypatia of Alexandria, Julius Ceaser, Vlad Tepish...... It seems a bit unfair to apply higher standards to Jesus' existance. Or do you question the existence of these people?
Sorry, what exactly are you referring to there? BTW, there are many records of trials from that period and earlier.
I guess you haven't seen "Wag the dog." then? Anyway, of course all people can't believe the same things, because there are so many "facts" that oppose eachother that it would be impossible to believe them all. So basically, a person just have to chose what they feel is a reliable source. That is why all christians aren't moslems today for example. So what a person consider to be true has very much to do with belief and trust.
My 2 cents... The name "Jesus of Nazareth" is plausible, because if he is a mythical name, his name would not have Nazareth added to it. Some one got crucified for sure, with some eyewitnesses to start the philosophy going after that was initiated. If Jeseus was considered a trouble maker, perhaps he was the one who got crucified. There should be some account of a Jew troublemaker within the Jewish community - whether they believed him or not. The Romans should have some documents - if they kept records. What is so unusual about a person started a philosophy of "Love thy neighbor" and trying to free people from the clutches of then priests and to look out for the common people? What is unusual is that a simple carpenter who wanted to help the poor, uneducated people would not believe if he showed up today that a religion named after him is controlled by the richest and most powerful priests today - the very thing he tried to prevent (IMHO).
and he would probably be locked in a insane asylumPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! or thought as a weird kid with some defects true but sad imho
Did you read what I wrote? I already mentioned it. I said I accept the two Josephan witnesses (one minus the interpolations). I also argued multiple attestation and embarrasment which are historical criterion but not a methodology in themselves (Contrary to what John Mieir argues in Jesus: A Marginal Jew. Try J D Crossan's the Birth of Christianity, Chapter10 p. 139 for more nformation) The Gospels and Josephus have Jesus being crucified under Pilate. That is independent multiple attestation. From other sources I believe it is reconstructed that Pilate was procurator of Judea (or something like that) around the time 26 to 36 (something like this anyways). Thats where the date comes from. Its something like that. We can't know the exact date given our historical sources because they are not full-proof. Just a plus or minus time period. I lent out my E.P. Sanders's book The Historical Figure of Jesus so I can't quote any specifics now. He went through the date for Jesus' cruciufixion though. And I have seen the 26-36 date advocated by other critical scholars who would say narrowing the date down to an exact year is relying to heavily on our sources which should not beh eld with such accuracy.
Stories of an event, you have mentioned. I recently saw a story called Jurassic Park. Nice story, and I've seen the video in several different places, and I know many people who have seen it. But it has not one shred of suppporting evidence. The stories you mention are Jurassic Park. What you have are stories. Now, we have surviving evidence of lives from thousands of years prior to that period. Surely a person who caused a social movement two thousand years ago would leave some trace of his existence? Now, since I doubt I will be able to see these things here for myself, is there any chance of pasting in excerpts from: ? Thanks.
