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Thread: What exactly is atheism?

  1. #81
    Atheists are labeled as atheists by theists..

  2. #82
    until the end of the world greenberg's Avatar
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    Oh no. Many atheists make a point of calling themselves "atheists".

  3. #83
    until the end of the world greenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Ardena View Post
    I cannot see how any theist could get this wrong, perhaps you can give a few examples.
    Iceaura has a point, though. Some Christian proselytizers hold a stance like this: "Everyone already believes in God and knows God. But some people are evil and refuse to admit that they believe in God, and they also deliberately try to blind themselves before the truth."
    Hence the difficulty of understanding there could be such a thing as "lack of belief in God".

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by greenberg View Post
    Oh no. Many atheists make a point of calling themselves "atheists".
    Sure, but they have been labeled as such by theists.

  5. #85
    Valued Senior Member Jan Ardena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enmos View Post
    What is this ? A theist arguing that atheists do not believe in god rather than believe god does not exist ?
    Believing God does not exist is the (for whatever) reason for non belief in God (atheism), and considered a rather foolish one at that.

    jan.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Ardena View Post
    Believing God does not exist is the (for whatever) reason for non belief in God (atheism), and considered a rather foolish one at that.

    jan.
    Uh.. what ?

    Are you saying that believing God does not exist is the reason for not believing in God ?

    Do you see a difference between the two bold parts ?

  7. #87
    Registered Senior Member
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    atheism is devilworship.

    and if you believe in atheism, you automatically also believe in evolution, rationality, materialism, determinism and many other things. atheists don't believe in afterlife because they believe in materialism. an atheist is almost the same thing as scientist.

    science and evolution is the religion of atheists. they claim that evolution is just a theory, like the theory of gravity or thermodynamics. those theories don't say anything about how we should live our life, but evolution does!

    evolution is a worldview (almost like a religion). and when (young, ignorant) people apply it to their life they become nihilists! if you believe in evolution you automatically believe that you are an animal and your life has no meaning. you become depressed because you don't believe in free will because your brain is controlled by natural laws.

    i know what i'm talking about because i live in a country where there are 85% atheists...

    that's not true, yorda... most atheists are nice and happy people.

  8. #88
    Registered Senior Member Myles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorda View Post
    atheism is devilworship.

    and if you believe in atheism, you automatically also believe in evolution, rationality, materialism, determinism and many other things. atheists don't believe in afterlife because they believe in materialism. an atheist is almost the same thing as scientist.

    science and evolution is the religion of atheists. they claim that evolution is just a theory, like the theory of gravity or thermodynamics. those theories don't say anything about how we should live our life, but evolution does!

    evolution is a worldview (almost like a religion). and when (young, ignorant) people apply it to their life they become nihilists! if you believe in evolution you automatically believe that you are an animal and your life has no meaning. you become depressed because you don't believe in free will because your brain is controlled by natural laws.

    i know what i'm talking about because i live in a country where there are 85% atheists...

    that's not true, yorda... most atheists are nice and happy people.
    True to form Yorda. you have given us an intelligent, well put argument. Now you only have to support it.

  9. #89
    Valued Senior Member Jan Ardena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enmos View Post
    Uh.. what ?

    Are you saying that believing God does not exist is the reason for not believing in God ?

    Do you see a difference between the two bold parts ?
    Yes, on both counts.
    What is your point exactly?

    jan.

  10. #90
    Valued Senior Member Jan Ardena's Avatar
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    greenberg,

    This is backwards.
    To know what is essential, one has to know the whole, for only in reference to the whole can one assess what is essential.
    We are automatically drawn to the essential. That is its attractive quality.
    There is no need to understand the physical make up of ice cream in order to access its essential quality.

    However (and this seems to be what you have in mind), one can take on faith or gamble/risk and this way get to know the essential.
    You misunderstand me.

    Knowledge of the essential might thus be the same in both approaches, but the ways this knowledge has been arrived at, is different.
    Knowledge of the essential is second rate understanding.
    The gopis, in the stories of Krishna, were not interested in God, or whether or not he exists, they only wanted to be in the company of Krishna.
    And they were regarded as Krishna's (Gods') most devoted devotees.

    There is no guarantee that the seeker will find; but his chances are better with the second approach than with the first one.
    Faith is required through trying to understand everything. The devotee who surrenders to God, has no need of faith. He has come to the end of knowledge by dint of service to the essence (santana dharma).

    So, strictly formally seen, acting on faith or gambling/risking is better than trying to figure everything out for oneself from scratch.
    Why do you think faith is a gamble? If I put my faith in the words and deed
    of Jesus Christ, what exactly have I gambled. Especially if, within his words and deeds, I come into contact with the essence.

    But he calls different names ... This is because the caller is entangled into material nature?
    Yes, the caller who remains the same, calls himself by different names. Irregardless of the condition of the caller, he still remains the same. This is true is it not? Sally the tranvestite, who used to be Larry the lorry driver, is still essentially the same person.

    I've got to go now.
    I will finish responding to the rest of your post later on.

    jan.

  11. #91
    until the end of the world greenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Ardena View Post
    We are automatically drawn to the essential. That is its attractive quality.
    There is no need to understand the physical make up of ice cream in order to access its essential quality.
    Excuse me, I haven't eaten ice cream in ages. What would be the essential quality of ice cream? Or apples or bananas for that matter?


    Knowledge of the essential is second rate understanding.
    The gopis, in the stories of Krishna, were not interested in God, or whether or not he exists, they only wanted to be in the company of Krishna.
    And they were regarded as Krishna's (Gods') most devoted devotees.
    But they had the opportunity to spend time with Krishna. For real.
    If I go to tend cows, will there be a beautiful young man with bluish skin?

    (It's funny that you mention this, because earlier I was thinking how pictures of Govinda are my favorites.)


    Faith is required through trying to understand everything.
    Sure, but it is a very general faith - namely the faith that if you apply yourself and seek to be as rational as possible, this will yield positive results.
    As opposed to, for example, the faith that acting in line with the Catholic doctrines will yield positive results, even though you currently do not find those doctrines very meaningful or don't know whether they are true.


    The devotee who surrenders to God, has no need of faith. He has come to the end of knowledge by dint of service to the essence (santana dharma).
    I'm not disputing that.


    Why do you think faith is a gamble? If I put my faith in the words and deed
    of Jesus Christ, what exactly have I gambled. Especially if, within his words and deeds, I come into contact with the essence.
    If you doubt whether Jesus existed, or if you have not come into contact with the essence, then putting faith in either Jesus or that essence is a gamble.


    Yes, the caller who remains the same, calls himself by different names. Irregardless of the condition of the caller, he still remains the same. This is true is it not? Sally the tranvestite, who used to be Larry the lorry driver, is still essentially the same person.
    Allright.


    I've got to go now.
    I will finish responding to the rest of your post later on.
    Thank you.

  12. #92
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Ardena View Post
    Believing God does not exist is the (for whatever) reason for non belief in God (atheism), and considered a rather foolish one at that.

    jan.
    Aliens on the planet Vulcan lack a belief in your god, Jan. Does that meant they are atheists and claim to NOT believe in your god?

  13. #93
    until the end of the world greenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Aliens on the planet Vulcan lack a belief in your god, Jan.
    So you think you are omniscient or think we should take your words as unquestionable authority?

  14. #94
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenberg View Post
    So you think you are omniscient or think we should take your words as unquestionable authority?
    Huh?

  15. #95
    until the end of the world greenberg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Huh?
    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Aliens on the planet Vulcan lack a belief in your god, Jan.
    Which says that you know there are aliens on the planet Vulcan (and that aliens and planet Vulcan exist), and that they lack belief in a particular god.
    (Way to go, Q, you have just asserted the existence of aliens on planet Vulcan!)

    As it is safe to say that most of us have no way of finding out whether planet Vulcan, aliens etc. exist, or what their beliefs are, we simply have to take your word for it as you speak with such conviction!

  16. #96
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    For the sake of Greenberg, I'm now forced to use the obligatory, "Imagine, for the sake of argument" in front of that statement.

    For your sake, Greenberg, just for you. Happy? Sheesh.

  17. #97
    Life, The universe, and e... Tht1Gy!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenberg View Post
    Excuse me, I haven't eaten ice cream in ages. What would be the essential quality of ice cream? Thank you.
    Sweet Creamy Goodness!!

  18. #98
    Life, The universe, and e... Tht1Gy!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Aliens on the planet Vulcan lack a belief in your god, Jan. Does that meant they are atheists and claim to NOT believe in your god?
    First of all, they're not aliens. They are from Vulcan! And no they are not atheistic, they believe in the Great Arkelsneezure. And all of them believe.

  19. #99
    Registered Senior Member Myles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tht1Gy! View Post
    Sweet Creamy Goodness!!
    Now that's what I call a sloppy post. You failed to address the question of appleness and bananess.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorda View Post
    that's not true, yorda... most atheists are nice and happy people.
    I'm glad you eventually figured that out yourself.

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