Which one is more modern medicine: Allopathy or Homeopathy?

1. Allopathy is based on alleviation of symptoms, not cure of a functional or structural defect. Once cured, the disease comes back after some time, this time with much greater intensity. Homeopathy treats the root cause of the disease. You have along lasting to permanent cure.

2. Allopathy uses the human body as a passive battlefield usually trashed in the process by drug and radiation. Homeopathy often avoids surgery.

3. Antibiotics kill bad as well as healthy bacteria. This result in weakening of immune system. Homeopathic medicines strengthen the immune system by building resistance to sickness. They do not disturb or hamper digestive system.

4. Most patients of allopathy tend to have been over-medicated, repeated frequently and for long term, making them dependent/addictive, resulting in side effects. Medicines kept going in and out of market every few decades once their side effects become obvious to the general public. Homeopathic medicines are ultra-dilute doses (this makes them non-toxic, safe and free from side effects) administered in minute quantity. Medicines used in the times (200 yrs back) of Dr. Samuel Hahnemann are used even today because of their efficacy.

5. Allopathic physicians mostly take only physical symptoms of the patient, except the psychiatrist. The emotions and mental state of the patient is not taken into account. Homeopathy is based on the science that the body, mind and emotions are not really separate and distinct, but are integrated. It views disease as a total affection of mind and body, the disturbance of the whole organism. The parts (organs) of the body do not independently get sick. It is the whole person who gets sick.

 

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Would you care to accompany me the the Intensive Care Unit or visit cancer suffers in my local hospital ? You and your so-called doctorate are bogus.

I know people cannot help being stupid but making money from guillable people is a crime.

I'm still waiting to hear from you how water magically loses its previous memories when a homeopath adds a tincture of essence of bollocks and dilutes it.

I would also like to know what trials you can cite which demonstrate that water has memory in the first place.

 

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homeopathy in cancer

At the General Hospital in Klagenfurt, Austria, children with cancer are treated with homeopathy along with conventional medicine.

If you think Homeopathy has no role in cancer, you are mistaken. Check out yourself:

http://www.homeopatia.edu.pl/index.asp?idm=2&idp=13&ide=41
http://www.freewebs.com/homeopathy249/cancerremediespti.htm
http://www.drramakrishnan.com/book.htm
http://www.otherhealth.com/homeopathy-discussion/113-we-were-curing-cancer-century-ago.html

 

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you have oviously never herd of a psycologist? health psycologist? nurse? even paramedics are taught to deal with the holistic pt in as far as we can in the time we spend with a pt. The Biopsychosocial model of health has nothing to do with charitisium your pushing

 

Paramedical staff is not always a physician/medical doctor.
Don't pass on the responsibilities of a physician to the paramedical staff

 

Can you please tell me how it has been " scientifically" proven that water has a memory.

 

Or even that you have a memory, Nanc'.

Do you have any objective scientific studies that illustrate statistical advantages to homeopathy in any situation?

 

of course im not a doctor, paramedics work under the direction of a doctor (otherwise we couldnt access the drugs we need) who is the clincial director of the ambulance service. However we have alot more atonomie than nurses do in our work. Its only for specific drugs (like the antibiotic used to treat meningitis and mingiococle) which we have to get doctors authorisation to give to our pt

 

http://www.rustumroy.com/Roy_Structure of Water.pdf //structure of water

www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/chaplin.html //memory of water

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Article/The Work of Dr. Masaru Emoto.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3817

http://www.digibio.com/

 

Ok ay I ask you "do antibiotics have a positive role in an ear infection (any type of infection)?

 

Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? A meta-analysis of placebo-controlled trials
Klaus Linde, Nicola Clausius, Gilbert Ramirez, Dieter Melchart, et al. The Lancet. London: Sep 20, 1997. Vol. 350, Iss. 9081; pg. 834, 10 pgs

This study, conducted by Dr. Wayne Jonas, head of the Office of Alternative medicine, and Dr. Klaus Linde, concluded that when the evidence of the 89 studies of homeopathy judged to be of good quality was pooled, homeopathy was 2.45 times more effective than placebo

 

Why are you deliberately avoiding the question concening scientific proof that water has a menory. Wayback you said homeopathy was scientic, which showed you have little understanding of science.

If the answer to my question is that ther is no proof, then say so !


I do not wish to engage in frivolous debate with you; I have personal reasons for pursuing this.


Now answer this: If you were approached by someone with MND what would you say to them and what help, if any, would you offer ?

 

I have only read this first of your five references and only it to page 589, but want to post a quote (in blue)from that page (and then make a few comments):

"A very large number of additional excellent and detailed papers have appeared which present evidence for the presence of specific molecular arrangements. An interesting cluster of these appeared recently in Science. Miyazaki et al. (Science, May 21, 2004) show infrared spectroscopic evidence for oligomers of different shape and sizes from n=4-27 in (H2O)n [41]. Shin et al. (May 21, 2004) present intriguing IR data near the 3.7μ O-H stretching band in oligomers from 6-27, around the “magic number” of n=21 [42]. From neither of these papers can one tell whether the authors believe that water—all waters under undelimited conditions—contain 100% of these molecules, or a majority. Nor is there any comment on how such clusters are distributed in space, or whether different size clusters are themselves formed into separate regions of the nano-heterogeneous bulk water. Some six months later, the October 22 and October 29 issues of Science carry several
exquisitely detailed papers on water from senior authors. They discuss the energetics and dynamics of electron binding and transport in various cluster sizes, some of it in vapor samples. These processes are extremely rapid in the tens of femtoseconds. The papers do not consider any models with a distribution of cluster sizes, nor do they show how reproducible the data are with different water samples, even allegedly ‘pure’ ones, or prepared by different means...."

For more than 30 years I have known water is not just a collection of H2O molecules kinetically bouncing off each other in a dense liquid. I have also understood why the dielectric constant of water is so unusually large (80 for DC as I recall). Until Nancy directed my attention to some of this literature, I had assumed that water was really (H2O)n -a collection of short chains (with the distribution favoring larger n as the temperature decreased)

All of this is due to the fact that both hydrogens are on one side of the oxygen atom (a triangle with 105 degrees at the O atom and 75/2 at each of the hydrogens.) I.e. each molecule of H2O has a permanent electric dipole. It would not if it were arranged in a straight line like H-O-H. To represent the dipole water I will use (+W-). Thus >30 years ago it was obvious to me that real water was a collection of "super molecules" like:

(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)
and
(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)
and
(+W-)(+W-)(+W-)(+W-) etc. but surely the longer ones were not straight as illustrated above. I feel a little stupid that it is only now that I realize that the longer ones can loop back on themselves, like a snake eating it own tail. If I had ever had occasion before today to actually draw the first of the three illustrated above, I am sure I would have realized this long ago also.

If one had a large set of small thin strong magnets and with epoxy made joined them together pair-wise, always with the "N end" touching (to represent the O atom) and the "S end" separated to form 105,37&38 degree triangles (representing H2O molecules) one could do some interesting experiments.

Of course the "O end" of the water analog could be the epoxy joined S ends. Also it would be convenient and cheap to use short pieces of magnetic wire to make the water analogs and one would need several thousand of them to do any really interesting experiments.

These experiments would mainly be to place all the "water analogs" in a box and shake it with various degrees of vigor (corresponding to different temperatures). Sudden termination of the shaking followed by careful inspection of the structures that have formed is one experiment. Another is to slowly diminish the amplitude of the shaking while it continues - here very interesting would be to see if the volume of the mass in the box is increased as the "analogue ice" is formed. Perhaps the way to approach this problem /question is to have a floating Styrofoam lid* covering the mass while shaking and lines (of different colors adjacent) on the inside of the box and video record which are visible while the shaking is still vigorous. The volume of the mass when shaking has stopped could then be computed to the computed volume when shaking was vigorous.

I am suggesting this as a physics experiment -It alone shows nothing about Homeopathic medicine’s claims, which I tend to doubt. However, those doubting those claims because water is "only a bunch of H2O water molecules" are very ignorant of how complex water is.

The text I quoted at start suggest that real water can be (and has been) investigated by careful observation of its electrically conductivity. (I suspect that any variations observed not due to temperature may be due to very slight contamination, but if contamination can be avoided, then "homeopathic water" should have some differences in the conductivity as the postulated structures are presumed to be different. I suspect that much stronger difference than in the electrical conductivity would be observed in the conduction and SCATTERING of ultra short sound waves.

I do not have convenient access in Brazil to the Science papers cited in the quoted reference, but would realy try to read any studies that have looked at ultra sound waves thru water. I suspect that if there are stable structures in "homeopathic water" that are not present in normal water, then they would be very different scatters and also that a small amount of atomic impurities would have very little effect upon the scattering of sound waves with wavelengths which in some way "resonate" with these structures. Surely someone has thought of and done these ultra sound scattering experiments - does anyone have a reference?
------------
*This plane lid would also make the analogy more complete as water does effectively have a "gravitational lid" that keeps it upper surface flat. Without this lid, I suspect the top surface of the "analogue water" would be far from flat.

PS despite being retired, I am very busy and thus may not have time to follow the literature you are suggesting be read. I also am more interested in other subjects active here, especially economics, and post more in them. I try to correct clear non-sense I see posted when I can. Homeopathic ideas are not IMHO quite "clear nonsense" but I think they need many more tests and demonstration before I would accept them. Certainly if I had a ruptured appendix, I would want a surgen, not some homeopatic water.

 

Interesting post. However, water seems to develop amnesia for all previous contacts it has made, when a homeopath gets his hands on it.

 

Agreed that is strange, but not impossible. I suspect that the mix of complex structures is normally strongly determined by the temperature and slightly by the pressure; however it is remotely(MHO) possible that there are some stable structures, not found in normal water* because they cannot "self assemble" but need a 3D substrate to grow on. - Sort of like a catalyst is required for certain chemical reactions to proceed to form the compounds they do. If homeopathic concepts are not entirely nonsense, then probably the reason relates to something like this.
--------------
*If these stable structures exist, they would not likely be both numerious and specific for some medical need. Thus, in no way can I believe that there is a multitude of diffenent "homeopathic waters" each for a different illness; however, it is possible that a few such structures do promote ones general state of health (I doubt that still) and thus give something more than simple placebo effect.

 

I have already posted 5 links related to memory of water. Kindly go through it.

 

I have seen nothing that I would regard as scientific proof. Have you ?

How about the question of someone with MND ?

 

To Fraggel Rocker (and others)

I would be highly opposed to closing discusion about water, which seems at least recently to dominate this thread. Water is a very complex substance not well understood - far from the simple minded thing most think it is (namely a collection of H2O molecules bouncing around on each other.)

Water has very unusual and strange properties. For example as it approaches its solid state it begins to EXPAND. I think there may be a few other liquids that do this, but cannot name one. No liquid metal does this when cast ing. no oil does, candle wax certainly does not. Water is unique in many ways. For example:

Water has one of the highest dielectric constants known -My work on the controlled fusion problem made me interested in the design of low inductance capacitors for very rapid discharges. The best that exists is simple two parallel plates with water between them - It is called a Bloom line. You can charge it up with very clean water between the plates several times the break down voltage very briefly from slower capacitors and then quickly dump the stored energy into your plasma. That is why I became interested in learning about water many years ago.

The question about homeopathic medicine should be divided into several separate questions, IMHO and that seems to be occurring in this thread. The first is to understand water - can it store any of its past history?
If no, then there is only placebo effect and other questions can be dropped.
If yes, then the question Myles has asked is important and next:

Namely how does it forget? To be crude, if it was once dinosaur piss is it still remembering that? Also how does a new "memory" get written into the water? Is that the only way that the old ones are erased? Or does water always relax to a distribution of complex grouping of bound H2O units on some time scale controlled by temperature mainly I would guess.

I do not believe that there is more to homeopathic medicine that placebo effect, but for me the question is not completely closed as water is so ill understood and clearly very complex -More in my post 13, a few back. So much of biology depends mainly on the SHAPE of the molecules and not on what they are made of is why it is important to know what stable shapes can , if any, be created in water that are not normaly there. Nerves are controlled by the shape of the molecules that may bind to surface cites - sort of a lock and key model. - So is taste. Why artifical sweetenrs work. etc.

Also in that post my suggestion of magnets joined by epoxy to make "water analogues" for experimental production of some of these complex structures is much too difficult compared the simple idea that occurred to me later. An ordinary "stick" of steel stables could be a good starting point as the two legs of each stable are about half as long as the other part. The stick could be cut down the middle and the then 90 degree pieces could easily be opened to 105 degrees (as the H2o molecule is) then there are easy ways to magnetize them in mass prior to separating each form the "staple stick." I.e. no need to mess with epoxy and production of 100,000 "water analogue units" for the experiments I suggested would be cheap and easy.

 

FR, i was here long before you arguing this topic so *blau*

Billy T actually there is no reson to go that deep into it at all, they have a theory which so far they havent been able to deminstrate under either of the two clinical resurch models (one is set up to test drugs and the other to test resurch where double blinds are impossable like cognative behavorial theropy). There for it doesnt matter whats special about water (and rember they think they can do it with ethonol and sugar as well and ethonol doesnt expand as it turns to a solid and nither does sugar). There "evidence" doesnt hold out even less than the religious argument does.