A failure of understanding

**Balerion** · 06-26-08, 04:27 AM

What was the question again?

The question is "Do you believe in god?".

How can that not be answered "yes" or "no"? Nobody is asking you "Is there a god?" Nobody is asking "Can you prove there is a god?" All anyone is asking is "Do you believe in god?".

Yes or no.

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-26-08, 04:48 AM

No, you mean: "do you believe there's a God up in the sky who looks after us especially the guys in the temples".
And yes, I believe I do believe, that what most people consider is "God", is something I not only am, but must necessarily be.

**Balerion** · 06-26-08, 05:43 AM

No, you mean: "do you believe there's a God up in the sky who looks after us especially the guys in the temples".

Fair enough.

And yes, I believe I do believe, that what most people consider is "God", is something I not only am, but must necessarily be.

But how do you qualify that?

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-26-08, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by JDawg

But how do you qualify that?

Qualify it? You mean expostulate, expound, why is it that I believe I must be God? Not "a god", as such, but what most people identify with, in whatever way they do, as that thing - which they will admit they can't really explain.

But if you've been in the place, you know it's there, type of thing. The "place" is yourself.

**Enmos** · 06-26-08, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Simon Anders

The context of the discussion seems important to me. It seems like you are imagining a conversation with an acquaintance out in the world. But here in a portion of the philosophy forums a simple yes or no could be quite misleading and raising the complexity of the issue fits.

No, I said the answer should be either "yes + [explanation]" or "no".
When answering with the former it's important to start off with actually saying "yes", if you want to prevent confusion that is..

**Enmos** · 06-26-08, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

If they want to hear "yes", or "no", then, as far as I'm concerned, they've already answered their own question.
My response to whether or not I believe in God is usually along the lines I've outlined already.
Or I might turn it back on them and ask them the same question, or: "what do you mean by 'God'? What's that?"

Oh come on, however confusing your concept of God may be, you know you believe in that God.
So the answer should be "yes". Then you can add an explanation, clarifying perhaps what you mean by God.

**Enmos** · 06-26-08, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

A question is not: being asked to say "yes", or to say "no". What if I said: "Nyoes".

What was the question again?

Do you believe in God or not ?

**Yorda** · 06-26-08, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Enmos

Oh come on, however confusing your concept of God may be, you know you believe in that God.

god is conscoiusness. so i'm an atheist. but i'm also a theist. my concept of god is very complex... god can be almost anything.

i have 2012 posts... i wonder if this is the end

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-26-08, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Enmos

however confusing your concept of God may be, you know you believe in that God.

I "know" no such thing. I know I'm breathing, though. I know I can see and hear, too.
Whatever it is, there's no "belief requirement". You don't have to convince yourself in the morning that you can open your eyes, do you?

You're asking a question that presumes an answer. You're asking me more or less: "do you believe you can see and hear?", but in your frame, you're asking "do you believe in a Judeao-Christian religious tradition?", or something like that.

**Balerion** · 06-26-08, 08:37 PM

So you don't believe in the Judeao-Christian God. There, I answered it for you.

**~~draqon~~** · 06-26-08, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Yorda

god is conscoiusness. so i'm an atheist. but i'm also a theist. my concept of god is very complex... god can be almost anything.

i have 2012 posts... i wonder if this is the end

my concept of God agrees with your concept of God, Yorda.

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-26-08, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by JD

So you don't believe in the Judeao-Christian God. There, I answered it for you.

Yes, but you did that before you asked it.

Again you presume that it's either: "yes there is a God up there somewhere and I believe 'in' his existence", or it's: "no there is no such thing as the deity in the Judeao-Christian tradition".

In fact, the "answer" is neither of those things.

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-27-08, 06:09 AM

There's the aspect of this that, in asking the question: "do you believe in" something, that isn't the same as being asked: "do you believe that" the thing exists. They aren't the same question at all.

The second is a lot easier, like being asked: "do you believe the sky is blue?". The first is, yep, like being asked: "do you believe in the sky being blue?". It's asking if someone has faith, or expects that the sky, being blue, can be trusted to continue being blue, isn't it?

**Enmos** · 06-27-08, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

I "know" no such thing. I know I'm breathing, though. I know I can see and hear, too.

So you don't know whether or not you believe in God..
Ok, say that.

Originally Posted by Vkothii

Whatever it is, there's no "belief requirement". You don't have to convince yourself in the morning that you can open your eyes, do you?

Why are you being difficult about this ?
It's really simple, you either do or don't believe in God. Or you don't know.

Originally Posted by Vkothii

You're asking a question that presumes an answer. You're asking me more or less: "do you believe you can see and hear?", but in your frame, you're asking "do you believe in a Judeao-Christian religious tradition?", or something like that.

Do you believe I am wearing socks ?

**Enmos** · 06-27-08, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

There's the aspect of this that, in asking the question: "do you believe in" something, that isn't the same as being asked: "do you believe that" the thing exists. They aren't the same question at all.

The second is a lot easier, like being asked: "do you believe the sky is blue?". The first is, yep, like being asked: "do you believe in the sky being blue?". It's asking if someone has faith, or expects that the sky, being blue, can be trusted to continue being blue, isn't it?

I don't get you. I really don't..

Do you THINK there is a something like a god ?

**ronan** · 06-27-08, 07:03 AM

Vkothii,
maybe you want to say that you cannot answer because there is no way we know we are talking about the same thing when we are using the word "god"
Would you consider yourself an ignostic ?

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-27-08, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Enmos

Why are you being difficult about this ?

Why do you think I'm being difficult about "this"? What exactly is "this"?

It's really simple, you either do or don't believe in God. Or you don't know.

If you know the answer, then why do you ask the question?

I don't get you. I really don't..

Do you THINK there is a something like a god ?

What you appear to be saying is: "I fail to understand". Does that ring a bell of any sort?
Yes, I think there must be something like the thing you think you're asking about.
Absolutely.

**Enmos** · 06-28-08, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

Why do you think I'm being difficult about "this"? What exactly is "this"?

Take a look at this thread.
It should never have gone past a few posts.
It did though, because you are being difficult about answering a question that can simply be answer with "yes", "no", or "I don't know".
Seriously.

Originally Posted by Vkothii

If you know the answer, then why do you ask the question?

Firstly, I didn't originally ask the question.
And, secondly, you never answered it. So how am I supposed to know.. ?

Originally Posted by Vkothii

What you appear to be saying is: "I fail to understand". Does that ring a bell of any sort?

Yes, I fail to understand why you can't give a straight answer..

Originally Posted by Vkothii

Yes, I think there must be something like the thing you think you're asking about.
Absolutely.

Thank you. That's a YES.. lol
You see, it isn't that difficult after all

Simply answering the question and explaining it are two completely different things.

**~~Vkothii~~** · 06-28-08, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Enmos

You see, it isn't that difficult after all

So, now you're happy that I've "answered" the question you have about my belief?

Although if I also say that I don't believe I need to believe in the thing you think you asked me about, except in the same sense that I believe the sky is indeed blue, and the sun gives off light every time it's up in the sky, does that clear it up for you any more?

**Enmos** · 06-28-08, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Vkothii

So, now you're happy that I've "answered" the question you have about my belief?

Although if I also say that I don't believe I need to believe in the thing you think you asked me about, except in the same sense that I belive the sky is indeed blue, and the sun gives off light, does that clear it up for you any more?

No, you seem to confuse the question with a question about a known fact.
I had no preconceptions about your belief, or whether or not you in fact had a belief to begin with.

Like I said, simply answering the question and explaining it are two completely different things.