Mass *has* gravity

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by quantum_wave, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Mass has gravity.

    Quantum waves are continually emanating from mass. The containment of the positive energy of the "push" peak of the waves within the mass itself accounts for a continual renewal of the mass.

    The containment of the positive energy of the "push" peak of the waves results in a net minus energy emanation. The emanated wave has the full negative pull energy of the pull trough of the quantum waves less the contained positive push energy of the push peak of the waves.

    This net pull of negative energy that emanates from mass is gravity.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Did you have a question?
     
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  5. Reiku Banned Banned

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    You can simplify it even more.

    Mass not only has a gravity, it seems to be gravity itself...

    I refer you to read,

    ''Parallel Universes: The Search for Other Worlds, 1985.''
     
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  7. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    This is the forum to present alternative cosmological ideas if I read the rules correctly. The statement in the OP is the bottom line of my personal cosmology.
     
  8. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you. I took a look at the book contents and index on Amazon and it does look like it talks about some of the same ideas that I have in my cosmology. So I put it on hold at the library and the only copy is across town so it will take them a few days to get it for me but I am interested in looking at it.
     
  9. ripleofdeath Registered Senior Member

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    i disagree.
    mass plus energy has gravity.

    mass alone with no inert energy has no gravity.

    the space station is a good example
    the alpha rotary joint keeps attracting dust which is most likely because it has inert energy and is one of the only points on the structure that has inert energy while also having mass in a micro gravity environment.

    i have not suggested this to nasa but then why would they bother paying any attention to me anyway.
    been thinking on this very subject for the last few months.
    seems to make sense to my way of thinking.


    and

    given the precepts of string theory combined with my own unified feild theory mass is just as likely to have negative gravity as positive gravity in a gravity free environment, which is likely the base polarity of dark matter.
    but i have not spent much thought on it really.
    got more important things to think about at the moment.
     
  10. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Mass and energy are equivalent.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence

    Roughly quoting Smolin, "string theory has failed to make any falsifiable predictions but makes many startling assertions about the world" ... with no supporting evidence.

    Quantum wave cosmology on the other hand operates in three dimensions and does not require spacetime coupling. It requires an energy background and energy density fluctuations in that background caused by quantum waves that are the result of quantum action. Quantum action is the collapse of a quantum of energy due to convergences of quantum waves which concentrate background energy from an initial "quantum space" into a high density spot and then the burst of that spot back into quantum waves. For talking purposes the time involved in one quantum action is 10^-50 seconds.
     
  11. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    As suggested and to find out where Fred Allen Wolf was coming from, I read Parallel Universes. It is quite interesting if you want a good view of where the science of quantum mechanics was in the 1990's and how the uncertainty principle can be interpreted.

    Wolf interprets it to imply that if we can't know both the location and momentum of a particle then it has a probability of being anywhere, even "other worlds". He goes on to infer that other worlds are parallel universes and hence the premise of his book.

    Quantum Wave Cosmology recognizes other arenas within the greater infinite universe but not because of the uncertainty principle. Other arenas exist because they are finite entities within an infinite universe and each arena is playing out in a consistent and similar fashion.

    Arenas form from the remnants of other arenas that have played out.

    Gravity causes big crunches to form from the remnants of prior arenas. The big crunches burst into finite expanding "universes" like our arena as a result of the physics of quantum action and containment. Quantum action and containment taken to their max under the pressure at the core of the big crunch activates the physical effect called critical capacity which marks the point where mass ceases to exert gravity. It is then no longer mass; it is contained (potential) energy locked in the core of the big crunch.

    The result is that the big crunch fails from within and when the built up locked quantum action is finally released the big crunch bursts. The burst occurs when the potential energy of quantum action suppressed at the core overcomes the diminishing gravitational force of the crunch. The burst releases the push energy held in the locked core to form the expansion phase which we are now observing in our arena.

    The push phase of quantum action is part of the quantum wave that results from quantum action. Quantum action is a collapse of energy followed by the burst of that energy back into quantum waves.

    The collapse results in a pull energy and the burst results in a push energy, both contained in the wave form of the quantum wave produced by quantum action. The quantum wave is a spherical wave with a leading trough of low energy density (pull energy) immediately followed by a peak of high energy density (push energy).

    The pull exerts gravity as it passes and the push offsets the pull so the net energy of a passing quantum wave passing through space would be zero if there was no interference.

    But of course there is interference in the form of other quantum waves. When quantum waves intersect along their expanding spherical surfaces the pull and the push of the two waves combine and the intersections move through space at the combined energies. The leading pull is stronger and the trailing push is stronger at the intersection.

    The convergence of quantum wave intersections forces the high energy density peak to reach a point called a high density spot. The high density spot when it forms is surrounded by the low energy density of the pull troughs of the intersecting waves. This is the point of the highest gravity and highest mass density in the "life" of that high density spot. The spot bursts because the high density of the spot cannot be contained when the convergence has played out.

    The high density spot is the combined peaks of the multiple intersecting quantum waves as they converge. Depending on the energy density of the environment where the convergences occur, the energy density of the high density spots can become very great.

    But regardless of the density of the environment there is a limit to the possible energy density of the high density spots because they are a product of their environment. They always exceed the energy density of their environment and burst into a quantum wave which disburses their contained energy back into the environment. This happens at the smallest scale like with the quantum waves that account for the energy that makes up a photon and at the largest scale like the energy that makes up an arena.

    That scenario is the premise of Quantum Wave Cosmology.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2008
  12. Cannon Registered Senior Member

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    No matter how small the mass may be it still curves the space around it.
     
  13. Cannon Registered Senior Member

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    The space that one proton curves space may not be known, but at some point, it will be.
     
  14. thecollage Registered Senior Member

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    You mean gravity has mass. I wish people would quit getting them backwards.
     
  15. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    It's like, which came first, the mass or the gravity

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    I say that mass and gravity have both always existed. Of course that puts my Quantum Wave Cosmology at odds with BBT cosmology which tracks back to a beginning about 13.7 billion years ago.

    But I say energy is all there is and mass is composed of energy, and gravity and mass are characteristics of the same phenomenon that I call the quantum action of energy.

    And I go on to say that energy is eternal, and not in a religious context; eternal in that it cannot be destroyed and it cannot appear out of nothingness.

    And I might add that just because in Quantum Wave Cosmology the universe is infinite and has always existed, it does not say that there is no God; it says that there is no irrefutable proof one way or the other.
     
  16. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    There is some logic to my premise that the universe has always existed. There is no possible proof of that fact but in my estimation it has a higher probability than the premise that the universe came from nothingness.

    One problem people often have with my view is that big bang theory and general relativity imply a beginning. The implication is that our universe must have come from an infinitely dense zero volume singular event about 13.7 billion years ago.

    To me it boils down to the probability that there were some unknown preconditions to the big bang vs. the probability that anything can come from nothing, let alone the entire universe.

    So the way I look at it, I have the high ground when it comes to the probabilities. It is likely that what we call the big bang, and what I prefer to say was the cause of the initial expansion of our observable universe, was the result of prior conditions.

    Though big bang advocates object when people speculate about "before or beyond" the big bang, they do so because they have the idea that time and space began with the big bang, but the theory doesn't actually start at the bang, it starts a fraction of a second after the bang

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    . Their nice neat finite spacetime universe is based on the lack of evidence of any precondition but they disregard that there is no evidence that anything can come from nothing. Which is more reasonable, something from nothing or something that has always existed? I choose energy that has always existed.

    It is from this high ground that Quantum Wave Cosmology was developed. QWC is simply the physics of quantum action that enables big bangs.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2008
  17. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Well my my... you looked up the book i suggested. It's good yes?

    I think wolf has an amazing ability to explain physics to even scientists. The book i referred was actually written in 1985, and i must admit, many of the theories are now outdated, but the larger chunk of understanding into the laws and principles still hold today.

    Take the example you gave him talking about; the uncertainty principle. When he wrote that book, not many physicists understood the uncertainty principle correctly, because it was considered a very complex discipline, (which it almost certainly is conceptually).

    Good for you m8!
     
  18. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    You may not have heard about this dude who was sitting in an orchard one day.

    Gravity is a name for the thing that keeps bits of mass accelerating toward each other. When they are together, or when they get together, they aren't apart any more, right?

    The reasons why things stay together or try to get together if they aren't are the same reason, essentially. These questions have occupied the minds of men since long before we started growing apples in orchards, but that dude and another one a couple of centuries later have answered these questions in the large.

    We still don't know the fundamental reason that mass exists, but we know a lot more about how it behaves in the large and at a fundamental level. At which there appears to be some impassable limit (an extremely small, but significant one), related possibly to the existence, or mass of all the large stuff we deal with, like apples and oranges. And computers and electricity.
    Lots of things really.
     
  19. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Yes I did and thank you for suggesting it. I wanted to see how Wolf tied in the physics with the parallel universes idea. I have to say that the existence of other dimensions seems unnecessary. String theory seems destined to fade from the scene and quantum mechanics is waiting for results from the LHC accelerator.

    Quantum waves are the wave of the future

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    The uncertainty principle at first makes sense because it is obvious that the act of observing fundamental particles interrupts the natural action of the particles observed. We can never know for certain both the location and momentum of a particle.

    However, the wave function which represents the set of probabilities of the location and momentum of a particle has been taken to extremes in my opinion. To speculate other worlds in other dimensions based on the uncertainty principle ... if there was a quantum physics that explained how mass and gravity co-exist and form from energy without other dimensions that would be better.

    I'm not being audacious when I write about such as yet undiscovered physics in the quantum realm. I don't claim to know anything that the professional quantum physicists don't know and at a working level I don't know a fraction of what they know through experiments and hands on. I don't try to follow the mountains of math that lead to new mountains that most people can't hope to climb. But that doesn't disqualify me from seeing where they are in the search for what causes mass to form, what causes gravity, and how the quantum world works.

    They don't have the answers, they don't seem to be able to unravel the evidence that they do have, they keep finding new levels of particles and they keep searching because that is what they do. But the final answer is elusive.

    All I have done with Quantum Wave Cosmology is anticipate success in the search for a unifying force and speculate about what "success" might be like.

    Then I have taken that speculated unifying theory of quantum energy waves and combined it with observations we have about the known universe to see what kind of universe such a combination would support.

    The current standard cosmology, the Big Bang Theory rests on general relativity that features spacetime that backtracks to a singularity and on the cosmological principle with predicts homogeneity and isotropy in the greater universe. It is a good working theory based on known physics and models largely derived mathematically but it isn't a complete cosmology since it doesn't address the actual beginning or how such a beginning came about or what caused the expansion that we observe.

    Discovery of a unifying force will change the standard cosmology. The cause of the observed expansion and the preconditions of that expansion will come into better focus. The physics of matter formation, gravity, expansion and accelerating expansion, dark energy, dark matter and the cure for the common cold

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    )) are all wrapped up in the discovery of the unifying fundamental force that operates at the infinitesimal level to provide the power that fuels all of the useful energy across the infinite universe.

    My writing is about such a discovery, the ultimate success in the quantum search that will lead to Quantum Wave Cosmology.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008
  20. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Yes indeed, at the infinitesimal level of order there is a source of power that fuels mass, gravity and what science books call the ability of energy to do work.

    The scientific community is working on the details but quantum mechanics is incomplete and string theory makes no testable predictions, so you are right so far about the “impassable limit”. Put simply, the current impasse is seen as the incompatibility between quantum mechanics and general relativity. The incompatibility can be referred to as a difference between Einstein’s dynamic spacetime that could have had a beginning and Newton’s fixed space what had no beginning and was just space where everything exists and happens.

    Quantum Wave Cosmology goes to that impasse and suggests some physics that would resolve it. We know that something is operating at the quantum level to provide useful energy in the form of mass. It is generally accepted that mass and energy are equivalent in e = mc² proportions. Three key questions that science is working on are how mass forms, how it contains its energy, and the cause of and the field across which gravity is transmitted between mass (spacetime and curved space of General Relativity describe the effect and not the cause of gravity).

    We know how to release the atomic energy but we don’t have a complete particle model that explains all of the relationships at the fundamental particle level. The cause of gravity is not described yet by QM either. The new accelerator, the LHC at Cern is coming online to help in the research process, but it is likely that though new levels of particles and particle interactions will be discovered, the final answers will remain elusive.

    Quantum Wave Cosmology that I am introducing describes a more fundamental level of energy and interaction, a commonality between all of the fundamental particles described in the particle model and so it is speculation. But it is reasonable and responsible speculation if you look at it as it was developed, i.e. one step at a time.

    I mentioned the first step was to go “before” the big bang and I speculate that space, time and energy pre-existed the big bang. To help understand the realm of QWC, it was developed as a model where the universe is infinite, is composed of energy and has always existed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2008
  21. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''Yes indeed, at the infinitesimal level of order there is a source of power that fuels mass, gravity and what science books call the ability of energy to do work.''

    You might want to read up on the Zero-Point Energy Field. It turns out that even at the infinitesimal pointlike size of the electron, there is also a zero-point, and sounds similar to what you where hinting at here. The idea, is that even at absolute temperatures, where there is thought to be a cut-off of energy, we still find a lot of movement. This was originally called, ''Residual energy,'' but the name ''Zero-Point Energy,'' fell into usage more. It is the source of all energy, which is the equivalant to all matter, and even quantum information

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    ''We know how to release the atomic energy but we don’t have a complete particle model that explains all of the relationships at the fundamental particle level. The cause of gravity is not described yet by QM either. The new accelerator, the LHC at Cern is coming online to help in the research process, but it is likely that though new levels of particles and particle interactions will be discovered, the final answers will remain elusive.''

    And much more problems too. Gravity though is a big one. I have a theory that matter in all types, is self-consistent with the force of gravity, as much as it does not require a graviton to mediate their strange effects, i also think that mass is self-consistent when concerning the generation of mass itself: The Higgs Boson. Of course, i will change my own personal model if they find a Higgs in the Particle Accelerator CERN, but i have my money on it not existing. How does your model work with the generation of masses: i.e. Does it require a Higgs Boson?

    ''I mentioned the first step was to go “before” the big bang and I speculate that space, time and energy pre-existed the big bang. To help understand the realm of QWC, it was developed as a model where the universe is infinite, is composed of energy and has always existed''.

    What do you think this thing was that existed before big bang?
     
  22. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I did some studies of zero point energy and residual energy. The Bose-Einstein Condensate has fascinated me too. Absolute zero and the collapse of particles within the same space lead me to my studies of the wave function and the quantum world.

    Our ideas about gravity and mass sound similar. My version includes how quantum waves and quantum action work to cause mass to form and to cause gravity as a result of mass formation. The role of the Higgs boson and the Higgs Field are replaced by an energy background to the universe and quantum waves intersecting as they traverse the background. Those quantum waves are generated by “quantum action”, and quantum waves cause quantum action. This actually leads to the question of which came first the quantum wave or quantum action

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    The answer is that they both have always existed.

    Quantum waves and high density spots (HDS): High density spots mark the point of convergence of quantum waves. Energy is carried via the intersections of quantum waves. These intersections can become unusually asymmetrical and are akin to rogue ocean surface waves where the crest and trough extremes sometimes occur due to the superposition of many wavelets with different frequencies and directions of travel. Think of those circumstances in a spherical wave context to get the picture. They reach a point of multiple convergences that concentrate energy into a high density spot. High density spots in QWC are the rule instead of a rarity. When the spot has formed it instantly “bursts” into an energy density fluctuation in the form of a spherically expanding energy wave. The burst occurs because the energy density of the surrounding energy environment is not sufficient to maintain the high energy density of the HDS because the convergence of the wave crests is a quickly passing event.

    In an extremely high energy density environment the burst can be delayed until the pressure declines.

    That makes it easy to segue to your question about, “What I think this thing was that existed before big bang?”.

    My premise is that our expanding universe, which I call our arena within a greater universe, was preceded by a big crunch. A big crunch is a finite accumulation of matter and energy as a result of gravity. The thing that keeps the entire greater universe from collapsing into this kind of big crunch invokes a part of the physics that I associate with Quantum Wave Cosmology (QWC). Once a certain amount of matter and energy collapses in to the crunch, the energy density at the core of the crunch reaches a limit I call critical capacity.

    Critical capacity sets off a process that causes the crunch to self destruct, burst, and release energy that has been negated from the matter and energy that accumulated in the big crunch. The premise is that when mass is compressed to the near infinite energy density of the core of a big crunch it can no longer function as mass and therefore the gravity that coexists with the mass ceases.

    This is called locking the quantum action at the core. When the quantum action is locked, quantum waves are no longer generated and the energy is converted to potential energy waiting to be released by the growing gravity failure of the crunch.

    To go a step further into QWC, our finite arena emerged from a big crunch when the potential energy was released. The release, which is QWC’s big burst event, occurred as the gravitational force of the crunch diminished and could no longer contain the potential energy of locked quantum action at its core.

    Being a finite event in an infinite universe, the premise is that ours is just one of a potentially infinite number of critical capacity events, i.e. big crunches and bursts playing out across the greater universe. Matter forms during the expansion phase after the burst and eventually galaxies are sent out into the greater universe where they contribute to the formation of subsequent big crunches.
     
  23. AlphaNumeric Fully ionized Registered Senior Member

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    Dollars to doughnuts you did no reading of actual quantum mechanical models and if I asked you to derive the fact a quantum field has a zero point energy contribution you'd be unable to.

    I bet your study involved reading Wikipedia and making unsupported claims about physics you don't understand.

    Same goes for Reiku.

    Either of you muppets want to prove me wrong?
     

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