Verschärfte Vernehmung

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by S.A.M., Jun 10, 2008.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The phrase "Verschärfte Vernehmung" is German for "enhanced interrogation". Other translations include "intensified interrogation" or "sharpened interrogation". It's a phrase that appears to have been concocted in 1937, to describe a form of torture that would leave no marks, and hence save the embarrassment pre-war Nazi officials were experiencing as their wounded torture victims ended up in court.

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    As you can see from the Gestapo memo, moreover, the Nazis were adamant that their "enhanced interrogation techniques" would be carefully restricted and controlled, monitored by an elite professional staff, of the kind recommended by Charles Krauthammer, and strictly reserved for certain categories of prisoner. At least, that was the original plan.

    Also: the use of hypothermia, authorized by Bush and Rumsfeld, was initially forbidden. 'Waterboarding" was forbidden too, unlike that authorized by Bush. As time went on, historians have found that all the bureaucratic restrictions were eventually broken or abridged. Once you start torturing, it has a life of its own. The "cold bath" technique - the same as that used by Bush against al-Qahtani in Guantanamo - was, according to professor Darius Rejali of Reed College,

    pioneered by a member of the French Gestapo by the pseudonym Masuy about 1943. The Belgian resistance referred to it as the Paris method, and the Gestapo authorized its extension from France to at least two places late in the war, Norway and Czechoslovakia. That is where people report experiencing it.


    Freezing prisoners to near-death, repeated beatings, long forced-standing, waterboarding, cold showers in air-conditioned rooms, stress positions [Arrest mit Verschaerfung], withholding of medicine and leaving wounded or sick prisoners alone in cells for days on end - all these have occurred at US detention camps under the command of president George W. Bush. Over a hundred documented deaths have occurred in these interrogation sessions. The Pentagon itself has conceded homocide by torture in multiple cases. Notice the classic, universal and simple criterion used to define torture in 1948:

    In deciding the degree of punishment, the Court found it decisive that the defendants had inflicted serious physical and mental suffering on their victims, and did not find sufficient reason for a mitigation of the punishment in accordance with the provisions laid down in Art. 5 of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945. The Court came to the conclusion that such acts, even though they were committed with the connivance of superiors in rank or even on their orders, must be regarded and punished as serious war crimes.

    The victims, by the way, were not in uniform. And the Nazis tried to argue, just as John Yoo did, that this made torturing them legit. The victims were paramilitary Norwegians, operating as an insurgency, against an occupying force. And the torturers had also interrogated some prisoners humanely. But the argument, deployed by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and the Nazis before them, didn't wash with the court. Money quote:

    As extenuating circumstances, Bruns had pleaded various incidents in which he had helped Norwegians, Schubert had pleaded difficulties at home, and Clemens had pointed to several hundred interrogations during which he had treated prisoners humanely.

    The Court did not regard any of the above-mentioned circumstances as a sufficient reason for mitigating the punishment and found it necessary to act with the utmost severity. Each of the defendants was responsible for a series of incidents of torture, every one of which could, according to Art. 3 (a), (c) and (d) of the Provisional Decree of 4th May, 1945, be punished by the death sentence.

    So using "enhanced interrogation techniques" against insurgent prisoners out of uniform was punishable by death. Here's the Nazi defense argument:

    (c) That the acts of torture in no case resulted in death. Most of the injuries inflicted were slight and did not result in permanent disablement.

    This is the Yoo position. It's what Glenn Reynolds calls the "sensible" position on torture. It was the camp slogan at Camp Nama in Iraq: "No Blood, No Foul." Now take the issue of "stress positions", photographed at Abu Ghraib and used at Bagram to murder an innocent detainee. Here's a good description of how stress positions operate:

    The hands were tied together closely with a cord on the back of the prisoner, raised then the body and hung the cord to a hook, which was attached into two meters height in a tree, so that the feet in air hung. The whole body weight rested thus at the joints bent to the rear. The minimum period of hanging up was a half hour. To remain there three hours hung up, was pretty often. This punishment was carried out at least twice weekly.

    This is how one detainee at Abu Ghraib died (combined with beating) as in the photograph above. The experience of enduring these stress positions has been described by Rush Limbaugh as no worse than frat-house hazings. Those who have gone through them disagree. They describe:

    Dreadful pain in the shoulders and wrists were the results of this treatment. Only laboriously the lung could be supplied with the necessary oxygen. The heart worked in a racing speed. From all pores the sweat penetrated.

    -------------------------




    plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

    What are we waiting for? Why are Gitmo and Abu Ghraib still open? What is happening in the secret prisons where "special" prisoners are sent?


    Source: The Daily Dish by Andrew Sullivan, 29 May 2007
     
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  3. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I read that. Guess who first used the phrase "homeland" too?
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, so the question is:

    Did the Gestapo commit war crimes, or should their indictments and imprisonements/hangings be retroactively overturned?
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    If you are asking should Bush and Co. be tried for war crimes, I think it's obviously a yes.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think it may be easier to pardon the Gestapo; perhaps I shall express my solidarity with the United States by demanding the Gestapo be compensated for falsely being accused of torture.
     
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think there are that many left.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Hah wait till you say the word "compensation".
     
  11. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Let's just hang prosecute 'em both.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    That would be too easy. I would send them to live in Iraq till its fully functional. Life long community service.
     
  13. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    Where are all the guardians of freedom tonight? How underhand of you to post this when all those who might explain it away are at the annual 'Guardians of Freedom' Ball.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, its an Islamic WMD (Wet Mouldy Douchebags); they stink.
     
  15. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    Oh well. I expect the cavalry will be along presently. Can't have you Islamics trampling contemptuously all over our hard-won freedoms.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Heil Hitler! The Misunderstood One!

    /apparently
     
  17. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Very cowardly of you to abandon where you have been defeated so utterly in order to run away to bash America somewhere else.

    Here's a response:

    Chronology

    [long cut-and-paste deleted. Please use a link.] - Which mod placed this here? Especially as Tiassa and I were discussing it.

    Anyway, Sam, please address the 800 some cited references to the savage and sustained campaign against civilians by the war criminal murdering terrorists which Bush is dealing with. You can find these cited references here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

    Of course, you won't, but just post another thing about how the Jews are the Devil and America is Baalzeebub.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2008
  18. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    So Sam, when we start prosecuting the vicious civilian killers such as the above, quelch the insurgency, establish law, and one by one execute the offenders...Or you know, in about fifty years, we might talk about "torture" to non-signatories of any human rights accords, et cetera.

    Furthermore, everyone knows the Nuremburg trial was a kangaroo court. After all, it was a military hearing by victors in armed combat. You know, the same thing you claimed about American courts.
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Mod Hat - Wow, what a shitty C&P

    Mod Hat — Wow, what a shitty C&P

    Did I miss something in there, or for all the links copied and pasted, are we missing the original source on that?

    Look, people, I'm aware that I've allowed a whole two questionably long copy and pastes in recent days, but let us not pretend that we can't tell the difference.

    Additionally, it would be helpful if, in the long run, such large paste-ins actually made a relevant point. For instance, how is the fact of suicide bombing by factions in Iraq relevant to the fact of American "enhanced interrogation techniques"?
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    Shhhh, I'm only up to October 7 2006.

    Ah crud. Now you made me lose my place.:bawl:
     
  21. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa:

    Sam is making the case that American policies are unjustified. I am making the contrary case that American policies are justified, considering the enemy that is being faced are civilian killing savages.

    Seeing as the above represents a scrupulously cited record of the barbaric, criminal, murderous campaign waged by terrorists in Iraq, I think it is extremely relevant. Especially as Sam has been a propogandist who has repeatedly attempted to get away from the facts of the conflicts she critiques and the methods she assaults. As such, I find it both my right and duty to correct her by demonstrating the fallacy of her argument through a list of hundreds of citations.

    If you want the original link to that information, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003
     
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    We are waiting for Islamic suicide bombing to cease, hence these facilities are still open that they may attempt to find out where and when the next attacks will take place and put a stop to it.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Is it working?
     

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