Medicine*Woman, this thread is for you. I am by no means a Biblical scholar, but this topic has always bothered me. As such, here is a little refutation of the idea of fallen angels, a being named Lucifer, or even really a "devil" in Judeo-Christianity. Not many people are aware that there is no such being as named "Lucifer" in the Bible, nor is there any narrative of a "fall" of any angellic host. Indeed, there is no "war in heaven". The name "Lucifer" is from the Roman religion and is ascribed to the divine personification of the "Morning Star", I.E. the planet Venus. St. Jerome placed used this Latin term as a replacement for Helel (morning star) in the Book of Isaiah, and due to the fact that "Lucifer" appears to be a proper name, many took it as refering to a being. Of course, when one reads the context of the Luciferian quote, one realizes that it is not a being at all. To quote at length from the Book of Isaiah, chapter 14 beginning in the fourth verse: 4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts. 24The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 25That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders. 26This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. 27For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back? 28In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden. 29Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 30And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. 31Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times. 32What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it. Seeing the above, we can only conclude the meaning of "Lucifer" (Helel) as being an allegory to the glory of the Morning Star, which the ambitions of the Babylonian king would have him become as grand as. Thus the rebuke is centered around the pride of a ruler who seeks to become greater than God and replace his lordship, rather than a reference to some mythical being, the likes of which is not at all discussed in the Bible. The entire idea of "fallen angels" is not to be found in the Bible. The closest we come is Apollyon, "the angel of the pit". But it is clear from a reading of the Book of Revelations, that Apollyon is a tormenting angel, instituted by God to punish the wicked with his army of Locusts. He is no more the Devil by being "King over the Pit", than anything else. Similarly, the Satan, as personified in the Book of Job, certainly does not fit the bill either. He is welcomed into Heaven by a curious God and it seems that Satan, in line with the meaning of his Hebrew name (adversary), is merely there to be the pessimist as to man's nature. There is no talk of him being "fallen", and indeed God seems to have no qualm with him whatsoever. If anything, he seems quite solidly to be in God's service. With the above taken into consideration, it is quite clear that the traditional view of Lucifer is a flawed one. Indeed, quite an odd belief to have sprung up out of nowhere into the Bible, without any factual basis. Of course, religious exegesis tends to produce such problems, as it necessarily is based on interpretation, which is rife with traditional answers which can be quite faulty.
Correct. Infact the Satans where God's lawyers(closest translation from hebrew is prosecutors). Closest being to the classic "Devil" is "AZAZEL", decended from Zoroaster traditions inherited from Babelonian influence approx 1200BC.
Revelation 12:7-9 "And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."
Carcano: Revelation is a book of things to come. It is a prophetic book. The whole narrative has yet to take place, in terms of traditional exegesis (but it is far more reasonable to place it during the Roman Empire). Here is the full chapter for reference: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short." 13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
So whats your position on the ORIGIN of this Satan who leads a host of angels...and the whole world astray? Considering that his war on heaven and its angels is something foretold in a future tense?
Carcano: If the narrative can be considered a legitimate description on a heavenly happening, we can actually point to the influence of the BIble to non-canonical descriptions. The concept of fallen angels is truly simply from the non-canonical books Abraham and Enoch, which would indicate that (St.) John believed in their veracity. Were I to hazard a guess as to the reasons for Satan rebelling, it may be due to a sense of being robbed of his position and therefore worthless ad eterniam. The "world to come" has no place for a Satanic figure.
Revelation was written about 50AD -90 AD and the author "John" is not known if it was the apostle or not. Really really weird that book got included and say...Enoch did not. Enoch is probably the 2nd most copied book from those days. I guess Enoch didn't scare the shit out of people enough. It's easier to remember one name rather than dozens of demon/devil names.
BTW, anyone interested in the history of Satan in literature should watch this film...The Ninth Gate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=036KsiaEOtQ Lena Olin plays the Devil...who always shows up as whatever attracts you!
A Brief History of Satan...concurring with James opening post. http://www.thatreligiousstudieswebsite.com/Articles/Theology/Satan/satan_brief_history.html
