Who kills more atheists?

[MayanArch]

Again the confusion of organized religion and theism.

You are also denying the religious aspects of Soviet and Chinese and Korean "Communism" (called "Maoism", for example, in China). (North Korea, far from being atheist by decree, has installed a former official as a deity. Theistic religion is a time honored enabler of totalitarian states.)

And Saudis are considered heterosexual because their government says so ?

The Soviets beat down religious organizations, also trade unions, farmers cooperatives, fraternal lodges, and the like. Any organization that protected the individual from the State.

Btw: only a small minority of Soviet citizens were officially Communist. There were official procedures involved, including thorough grounding and competence in the teachings of the Prophets, and the taking of oaths, and the demonstration of proper character through good deeds and sincere discipline. I do not know if the rites of induction included a full immersion in sanctified water or not.
It is very rare, however.

Yes, and Communism under Gorbachev was very tolerant as well. This doesnt reverse the murders, doesnt give any of the murdered their lives back. Whatever softer form of Communism is now being practiced in China doesnt in any way undo what they did at first.

And, no......hee hee.....I gotta laugh at your interpretation of Kim Yung Il as the God of Communist North Korea. Thats really a stretch.

Stalin was atheist just like Kim Yung Il. He had God like status. Does that make him an "atheist God"? Isnt that sort of like voting for the Anarchy Party?

As far as it being "rare"..........Communists governments, with atheists law written into their books, killed 98,000,000 of their own citizens around the world. Hardly rare. Maybe not all punishments for practicing religion.....but still murders.....conducted by atheists.

I am sure the friends and families of those people could care less what individual motivations were. Their family members got thrown into gulags by a government that tore down their churches, ridiculed their religion, and made it a unlawful to practice it. They are still dead.

Richard Dawkings popularized this notion.......and made as much harm to history as he did to science.......by basing his notions weighing more personal interpretation than the actual facts.

unfortunatly, history doesnt change just cause it bursts your concept of atheism.

[MayanArch]

Maybe your arguments would make sense if Communism had been ambivelous or passive about its atheism..........but nothing could be further from the truth.

There was nothing passive about Communism and its hatred of religion. They lashed out with their hatred in all forms of violence.........by tearing down churches to build secular buildings on top of them.........they did nightime raids to round up those conducting religious ceremonies.......and they wrote laws to make religious beliefs a crime punishable by any sort of capital punishment.

Thats hardly a passive or ambivelent way of being atheist. In fact, thats quite similar to what Hitler did to the Jews for participating or belonging to the Jewish faith. It is exactly what the Spaniards did to both the Maya and the Aztec for practicing their faith.

Again, if make your atheism mandatory by law........and hunt down and kill anyone that violates that forced atheism law.........you are killing FOR atheism and in the name of atheism.

[iceaura]

And, no......hee hee.....I gotta laugh at your interpretation of Kim Yung Il as the God of Communist North Korea. Thats really a stretch.

It's not my stretch: http://www.northkoreanchristians.com/nk-present.html http://www.adherents.com/largecom/Juche.html

Stalin was atheist just like Kim Yung Il. He had God like status. Does that make him an "atheist God"?

It makes his worshippers theists. I don't know of too many theistic Gods - impossible in a monotheistic setting, certainly. Amusing question.

I am sure the friends and families of those people could care less what individual motivations were.

But we do - we're discussing exactly that.

Yes, and Communism under Gorbachev was very tolerant as well. This doesnt reverse the murders, doesnt give any of the murdered their lives back. Whatever softer form of Communism is now being practiced in China doesnt in any way undo what they did at first.

? Who ever said it did ?

There was nothing passive about Communism and its hatred of religion.

Again this slide from religion to theism and back again, as suits the conveneince of your "argument".

There was nothing passive about authoritarian Communist governments and their hatred of any organization that protected the individual from the State.

Again, if make your atheism mandatory by law........and hunt down and kill anyone that violates that forced atheism law

There is no record of the Soviets doing that. They concentrated on organized religions. The Commie Koreans have made theistic worship of a deceased Leader the law, not atheism. The Chinese ? Here's a possible answer for the OP - whoever has killed the most Chinese has killed the most atheists.

In fact, thats quite similar to what Hitler did to the Jews for participating or belonging to the Jewish faith. It is exactly what the Spaniards did to both the Maya and the Aztec for practicing their faith.

There is no record of Hitler bothering to investigate whether anyone was practicing any faith, or believing anything. The Spaniards were the opposite - unlike Hitler, they did inquire after belief and kill for the wrong ones - each other, as well as enemy.

Seems more a matter of technique, adaptation to local circumstances, etc.

[Arsalan]

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief.

No. I have not claimed that. What we are claiming is that if you are going to blame religion for all kinds of wars and conflicts just because the people involved in them followed a certain religion, then you should act fairly and lay the blame for wars and conflicts in which atheists were involved at the feet of Atheism. Isnt that fair?

The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions.

Ofcourse they are, nevermind that the people who started them were not religious themselves and were highly critical of religion themselves.

Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok

But when a religious person claims this, is it accepted? No. He is mocked and his religion is blamed for all the wrong in the world.

There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

Ah, this is what I was waiting for: the assumption that reason is only available to one when one discards ones religious beliefs. Be careful though, a likeminded person claimed that assuming things is a fundie trait.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

Ah, the fundy accusation. Never too far is it when debating with theists? Its an easy to discard anything the theist might have to say because no one really likes the fundies as portrayed by the popular media. But lemme rephrase that quote:

this is a common mistake made by atheists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe theism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, theism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

Lets move on and see if we can find any of the truths in the above paragraph in what you are going to say:

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Do I? I’ve never made that claim. I believe that Islam for example presents a mixture of communism and capitalism and various other forms of government. Recheck your sources please.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic.

Nah, its just that the people that created modern communism and ruled communist countries tended to be atheists. Or we can out this another way:

Communism is not, however, inherently theistic.

Funny that isn’t it!

*Snip*BAH! BAD BIBLE! BAH! COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA*SNIP*

So because we find some examples of what you have termed communism in the Bible, religion is more related to communism? Funny that! Maybe you shoul tell the over 60 million people killed by Atheist leaders in communist countries that, they may rethink their strategies... Oh, wait...

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, the bible is basically a communist manifesto.

No one i s saying they are the same. But when you accuse religion of being bad because a few religious people are involved in wars and conflicts and or commit atrocities, at least have the balls to blame atheism when atheist leaders do the same.

[audible]

No. I have not claimed that. What we are claiming is that if you are going to blame religion for all kinds of wars and conflicts just because the people involved in them followed a certain religion, then you should act fairly and lay the blame for wars and conflicts in which atheists were involved at the feet of Atheism. Isn't that fair?

Ah but your are! you're try to connect Communist and evil despots with Atheism as the direct cause for their killing spree's, sorry it does not follow.
Atheism isn't a belief system, philosophy, cause, or an ideal in which people kill or die for. Getting killed by an Atheist, is not being killed by Atheism, you claiming Atheism is the cause is the same as being killed by a midget, and claiming, you were killed in the name of midgetism.

Of course they are, never mind that the people who started them were not religious themselves and were highly critical of religion themselves.

Yes Communism is highly critical of religion as Christianity is critical Islam, all dogmatic people think there ideology is the right one, all try to suppress the other.
People dont kill in the name of Atheism, Communists kill in the name of there dogma Communism. same as Islamics kill in the name of Islam, Christians in the name of Christianity. etc...

But when a religious person claims this, is it accepted? No. He is mocked and his religion is blamed for all the wrong in the world.

That is mainly because, any religious adherent would gladly kill, or die for it's dogma.
Whereas the Atheist respects life much much more, thats not to say some haven't killed. But they don't fight for it as a cause.

Ah, this is what I was waiting for: the assumption that reason is only available to one when one discards ones religious beliefs. Be careful though, a like minded person claimed that assuming things is a fundie trait.

But were is the assumption, who is making one, not I, can you show how religious believe is reasonable, remember it is all based on faith, the religious adherent can be reasonable in all other aspects of his life, bar his religion, in that he has only his faith to rely on.
As I said in the above reply "any religious/communist adherent would gladly kill, or die for it's dogma." is that reasonable. I don't think so.

Ah, the fundy accusation. Never too far is it when debating with theists? Its an easy to discard anything the theist might have to say because no one really likes the fundies as portrayed by the popular media. But lemme rephrase that quote:
Lets move on and see if we can find any of the truths in the above paragraph in what you are going to say:

Apart from making the statement look stupid it hasn't furthered you argument.
Would you die for your God, would you kill for your God. we all know the answer to that. Fundamentalism is the rigid adherence to religious principles, Atheism isn't a belief system, philosophy, cause, or an ideal, you cant have a fundamentalist Atheist the two are mutually exclusive, Atheism is an individual thing, you can have atheist who are strong minded, passionate, and even diligent in furtherance of Atheism. Mainly to help humanity survive, because good sense saves lives.

Do I? I’ve never made that claim. I believe that Islam for example presents a mixture of communism and capitalism and various other forms of government. Recheck your sources please.

Well bully for you, the one rare theist.

Nah, its just that the people that created modern communism and ruled communist countries tended to be atheists. Or we can out this another way:
Funny that isn’t it!

Apart from making the statement look stupid it hasn't furthered you argument.
However it in no way makes, all Communist, Atheists. Are all Americans Christians simply because Bush is, is Capitalism purely Christian, or are there Christian Communist the simply fact that there is, kills your argument.

So because we find some examples of what you have termed communism in the Bible, religion is more related to communism? Funny that! Maybe you should tell the over 60 million people killed by Atheist leaders in communist countries that, they may rethink their strategies... Oh, wait...

No, don' be childish, the point being made is that Communism isn't solely Atheistic, it is also Theistic. so trying to blame Atheists for what the Communist did, you have to also blame the Theists, it's that simple.

No one i s saying they are the same. But when you accuse religion of being bad because a few religious people are involved in wars and conflicts and or commit atrocities, at least have the balls to blame atheism when atheist leaders do the same.

Again we are back to the fact that a religious adherent would kill or die for his cause.
whereas atheist have no cause, and give life much more respect.