Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

[Gustav]

lets break for a commercial

* In California, drowning is a leading cause of accidental death for children one through four years age.
* Children drown in pools, spas, buckets, toilets and bathtubs. A child can drown in as little as two inches of water.
* A child can drown in less time than it takes to answer the telephone.
* 67% of all drowning deaths occur in their own backyard pool, spa or hot tub.
* The majority of drowning incidents occur while the caretaker assumed the child was safely indoors.
* 25% of all children who have drowned or nearly drowned have had swimming lessons. The risk of a drowning or near drowning is highest during the first six months a family has a pool.

-------------------------------------------------

* Is your pool surrounded by a 5 foot 6 inch high or higher fence or barrier?
* Is the fence childproof with bars not more than 4 inches apart? If it is a chain link fence, the diamond shaped opening should be no larger than 1 3/4 inches.
* Are the gates self-closing and self-latching? The self latching mechanism should be out of the reach of children.
* Is the self-latching mechanism at least 54 inches, from the bottom of the gate? If less than 54 inches, the latching mechanism should be located on the pool side of the gate.
* Are all the gates kept locked?
* Are all exit doors and windows leading from the house to the pool kept locked and secured?
* Are pool rules posted in a visible location?
* Is rescue equipment kept near the pool? A ring buoy with an attached line and/or a long handled hook.

---------------------------------------------

PHOENIX (AP) - A 3-year-old Phoenix boy drowned in his family's backyard pool in the third child drowning in Maricopa County this year. Phoenix police say the boy was playing outside while his parents and five other children were inside the home Saturday afternoon. Police say a brother found the boy in the pool. He was not breathing, and family members performed CPR on the child until paramedics arrived. The boy was pronounced dead at a nearby hospital.

Detective Stacie Derge says it's unclear how the boy managed to get past the pool's fence.

Phoenix Pool Fence Code

scheduled program resumes

see? nothing we do can prevent these accidental drownings. dismantle and get yer money back. the pool safety industry is running a scam.

[Tiassa]

Do not presume to inflict the status of victim on me. Save it for your bleeding heart friends. I can not believe I missed this subtle, yet incredibly offensive insult.

Poor you. Such a victim. It's not like you wrote about how you were ambushed, or anything like that.

ambush
Function: verb

transitive verb

2 : to attack from an ambush : waylay

intransitive verb

: to lie in wait : lurk

Function: noun

1: a trap in which concealed persons lie in wait to attack by surprise

(Merriam-Webster)

Yeah. People were really lying in wait, just hoping you'd walk into a trap.

Talk about incredibly offensive.

• • •

And, hey, speaking of incredibly offensive:

see? nothing we do can prevent these accidental drownings. dismantle and get yer money back. the pool safety industry is running a scam.

Yeah. That pool was just whispering to the child. Right. Just calculating, scheming, trying so hard to be so subtle while luring a three year-old to death.

/kowtow

And quit encouraging people who don't know any better to embarrass themselves. Given the gravity of this issue debated here, one might think you're exploiting a societal tragedy and its effects for your own personal amusement.

[Randwolf]

Poor you. Such a victim. It's not like you wrote about how you were ambushed, or anything like that.

ambush
Function: verb

transitive verb

2 : to attack from an ambush : waylay

intransitive verb

: to lie in wait : lurk

Function: noun

1: a trap in which concealed persons lie in wait to attack by surprise

(Merriam-Webster)

Yeah. People were really lying in wait, just hoping you'd walk into a trap.

Talk about incredibly offensive.

• • •

And, hey, speaking of incredibly offensive:



Yeah. That pool was just whispering to the child. Right. Just calculating, scheming, trying so hard to be so subtle while luring a three year-old to death.



And quit encouraging people who don't know any better to embarrass themselves. Given the gravity of this issue debated here, one might think you're exploiting a societal tragedy and its effects for your own personal amusement.

Sorry, I missed the word "victim" in your definition of ambush. Try again. As I mentioned, I'm really quite enjoying myself.

And I see you're still having difficulty with the concept of analogy there. Or maybe it's scale again. What is an appropriate analogy to use in conjunction with rape?

I think you may have issues with sarcasm as well.

Oh, and I'm mostly immune to embarrassment, so don't worry your pretty little head about my plight.

Honestly, is SF your whole life? Get a grip....

[Tiassa]

I think you may have issues with sarcasm as well.

Yeah, I admit I've been slow to pick up on the fact that your whole role in this discussion is sarcastic.

Sorry, I missed the word "victim" in your definition of ambush.

Like this. It is a difficult proposition to believe that you are actually that stupid. So the question becomes one of why you've been putting on the show you have.

In the future, I will certainly not be making the mistake of taking you seriously.

[Gustav]

ok tiassa i shall change tack

.......is that it does nothing about rape in general.........men are committing the vast majority of the rapes and that history indicates quite clearly that sexual repression does not end sexual abuse.

now
that is absolutely true
i shall however reiterate my position. i know precautions can reduce likilihood of victimization. however, i shall not advise anyone to adopt this or that behaviour in order to ensure safety. my primary reason for not doing so is that i believe in the notions of personal responsibility. let those affected by these issues deal with it in manner acceptable to them. if they need help there are official orgs as well ngo that can fill that need. the most i can do is not be part of the problem. ie: treat the bitches with respect.

now, i am out of the way yet it seems as if i am held responsible for the actions of my fellow man.

/spits

nah
i'll play along
what can be done?
feel free to get the ball rolling, tiassa
in the meantime, i shall gather my "thoughts"

[Gustav]

And, hey, speaking of incredibly offensive:
Yeah. That pool was just whispering to the child. Right. Just calculating, scheming, trying so hard to be so subtle while luring a three year-old to death.

The thing about the pool tale is that they're thematic. You cannot cling too closely to any one meaning. If you want to compare the woman to the child you can, but it's not particularly useful. If you wish to compare the temptation of the pool to drown the child with the temptation of a rapist to commit rape, you certainly can. There is, indeed, a theological debate about whether one participates in another's sin by providing the opportunity for sin. And we can take all the precautions we want against other people's sins, but sin will still occur. And it will still find us, in one form or another. (tiassa/gustav)

[Randwolf]

The thing about the pool tale is that they're thematic. You cannot cling too closely to any one meaning. If you want to compare the woman to the pool, you can, but it's not particularly useful. If you wish to compare the temptation of the pool to drown the child with the temptation of a rapist to commit rape, you certainly can. There is, indeed, a theological debate about whether one participates in another's sin by providing the opportunity for sin. And we can take all the precautions we want against other people's sins, but sin will still occur. And it will still find us, in one form or another. (tiassa/gustav)

ROTFLMAO!!!

[Randwolf]

Yeah, I admit I've been slow to pick up on the fact that your whole role in this discussion is sarcastic.

Charming, You come up with most delightful, yet absurd conclusions. My reference was to Gustav's suggestion that we tear down all the pool fences.

Like this. It is a difficult proposition to believe that you are actually that stupid. So the question becomes one of why you've been putting on the show you have.

Oh, don't ever make the mistake of believing that proposition. Maybe in your world ambush equals victim, in mine it's opportunity.

In the future, I will certainly not be making the mistake of taking you seriously

Promise?

[Gustav]

Given the gravity of this issue debated here, one might think you're exploiting a societal tragedy and its effects for your own personal amusement.

i know i care more than most. definitely more than you, buddy
you, more than most, know what a pie in the sky idealist i am
i in turn, know how wicked you can get
so shut the fuck up
the only thing i exploit is illogical interpretations of said tragedy
it amuses yet annoys as well

/double miffed

[Tiassa]

i'll play along
what can be done?
feel free to get the ball rolling, tiassa

Well, given that it was two hundred posts ago, I won't fault you for having forgotten considerations included in my response to one of your posts.

Indeed, your would-be protégé picked up on it, but minimized the consideration in order to foment some hyperbole based on caricature.

Thus, to review:

... Let us consider for a moment, please, misogyny in general. Certainly cultural influences are strong, but that only begs the question. The reality is that a tremendous amount of misogyny—much like homophobia, racism, and religious hatred—is learned in the home.

Keeping that notion close at hand, I have in the past suggested that even if we were able to educate rape out of the culture, we would not eliminate rape. The diversity of nature renders a total elimination of sexual abuse and assault impossible.

However, I would propose that, for instance, a tremendous portion of the thousands of rapes taking place on and around American college campuses each year—mostly date rapes—could be eliminated in the future if our society and families spent more resources educating our children in the nature and necessity of basic human respect. Many date rapists simply don't understand what they've done wrong. And if they do, they find within the culture plenty of ammunition with which to defend themselves. Playing hard-to-get? You could tell by her eyes? And, yes, this or that about whatever she was wearing at the time.

What are the precautions, then? Dress conservatively, don't be alone with males, don't go on dates. In other words, get frumpy and hide in your room.

As I said, these precautions are an open-ended proposition. And they fail to address the perpetuation of ideas justifying or even encouraging rape. It's like that old anti-drug commercial: "Who taught you to do this stuff?" You, alright? I learned it by watching you!

One looks at his son and says, "What the hell were you thinking? Where the hell do those ideas come from?" And then the son replies with any number of strikingly familiar phrases. The father hears, in his son's words, his own voice.

Yeah. People should always take precautions. In this case, however, the open-ended proposition is untenable:

If only I hadn't opened the door thinking it was the Amazon.com delivery! What the hell is she supposed to say? "I'm sorry, I'm all alone in here. Please come back when there are other people are here to protect me!" And, hell, what about the precaution of never exposing your weakness? A-ha! says the rapist. She's all alone in there!

Looking both ways before crossing the street takes a mere second. Hiding away in fear can be your whole life, if you let it. (#1884557/253)

The thing about the pool tale is that they're thematic.

Generally, it is safe to presume you are operating in good faith, Gustav. Not on this occasion, though.

Quite simply, I would propose that there is a difference between the precautions taken by a person seeking to avoid specific interaction with an inanimate object and those taken to avoid being hunted or stalked by a predator who is often well-camouflaged. It would seem you disagree. Let us know, though. You're a creative one, for the most part. I'm sure you'll invent something amusing.

[Randwolf]

Got it, consider it added to the list.

Yay, we're back on track...

"more resources educating our children in the nature and necessity of basic human respect"

Thank you

P.S. How do you get those cute accent aigus on protege?

[Gustav]

Keeping that notion close at hand, I have in the past suggested that even if we were able to educate rape out of the culture, we would not eliminate rape. The diversity of nature renders a total elimination of sexual abuse and assault impossible.

However, I would propose that, for instance, a tremendous portion of the thousands of rapes taking place on and around American college campuses each year—mostly date rapes—could be eliminated in the future if our society and families spent more resources educating our children in the nature and necessity of basic human respect. Many date rapists simply don't understand what they've done wrong. And if they do, they find within the culture plenty of ammunition with which to defend themselves. Playing hard-to-get? You could tell by her eyes? And, yes, this or that about whatever she was wearing at the time.

pardon my negligence
but i see the distinction. (my distinction)
a grand old social engineering scheme vs the quick and dirty fix
i prefer the first
lets see if fixes and patches can be applied to the buggy program

[Tiassa]

P.S. How do you get those cute accent aigus on protege?

I'm an Apple user. For us it's just Option-e and then the letter.

• • •

i prefer the first

Putting a bandage over a lesion does nothing to actually treat the cancer.

[sniffy]

Thanks. Overwhelmed? Sometimes, but all in all I'm having a blast.

Me too.

Look what happened whilst I was out taking precautions ^^^^^

Another piece of reality TV I'd like to share with you. Sorry and all that it's anecdotal as such things I know don't count over here on unemotional sci. However, bear with me.

My dear old granny. "Battle-axe". Short (4' 9" in old-fashioned speak) but tough as old boots. Husband was in the army and away on and off for 7 years; 6 of which were war years. She'd worked in a cotton mill from the age of, well whatever age it was that folks could be exploited back in the day. No simpering, no flitting.

So she works for the NAAFI (look it up on wikipedia har har har) and they are entertaining our allies. There she is in the photo taken on that very night; we came across it as we were looking through her old photos; gran and her two pals laughing like there's no tomorrow (there might not be there's a war on you know). Buttoned up in their smart NAAFI uniforms; sensible shoes. I asked her to tell me about the photo....

Now the married ladies aren't allowed to dance with the men (feminazis!) so she dances with her pals (every man's wet dream!). Having a blast (ha ha ha!)!

Not sure if it was a fag break (oh how many are 'at risk' thanks to the new no smoking laws in thr UK!/smirks) or maybe it was a toilet break. Anyway she steps out of the forces dance hall and into the corridor followed by one of our allies; here to defend us.

"I've been watching you (run granny run). You're a great dancer." Tall, handsome, accent like one of those movie stars....

I'm not sure exactly what happened next but I'm pretty sure it wasn't pleasant judging by gran's face. I thought she was going to tell me that she'd had a little liaison. Well who would blame them there was a war on you know?

But she isn't looking at the photo in that sort of way. She's not laughing or even smiling. Anyway he made a suggestion; she wasn't up for it; but he did it anyway. After all who would they believe? An officer and a gentleman or a working class lass; short and sweet, beautiful hair, great dancer, having a ball, husband away....she must have asked for it. Maybe if she'd had higher shoes on and not the standard army issue he wouldn't have selected her...? Small you see. Just another statistic? An unreported rape. So she went to the bathroom; fixed her dishevelled clothes; fixed her red (MUST have been asking for it!) lipstick; fixed her smile and went back to the dance. Didn't dance though and there were no more photos of that night.

"I used to love dancing." She said and the photo went to the bottom of the pile. After she died I looked but couldn't find it.

Tell me again about the impact that feminism has had on rape statistics.

[sniffy]

Hint: encouraged people to take more precautions; encouraged people to report it.....

And has the increased reporting lead to an increase in arrest and conviction, exponetially?

Quick look at the statistics.

[codanblad]

Look what happened whilst I was out taking precautions ^^^^^

you're implying precautions are a bad idea. and of course people still get raped while taking precautions, thats because the precautions being taken are 'walk under a street lamp' instead of effective ones like 'wield a sword'.

cough reduce not eliminate cough.

i'm sure there's heaps of heart-wrenching rape stories, but we all get that rape sucks. hasn't this thread shown that emotion is extremely counter-productive when discussing rape? no one's gonna say 'wow i didn't realise how bad rape actually is, i've changed my mind' because what's being suggested by the realists is in the best interests of people, and with an understanding of the horror of rape.

had she not danced amongst a bunch of men (away from their gfs, at war - might die tomoro so doing whatever they want) would she have been as likely to have been raped? he did imply her dancing was his motivation.

[sniffy]

No I just can't trust you to do it:

http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/stats.html

And lest you cry 'feminist' try this interpretation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3074845.stm

And then when we can accept (if only in principle) that 'the precaution/anti precaution' discussion, although well intended (hell, here I come), is a red herring maybe we can all be mature enough to have a proper discussion about sexual violence. Woman to woman; man to man; woman to man and man to woman. Or vice versa. ha ha

Precautions are all well and good but they can lull one into a false sense of security; a societal problem - constantly fiddling around the edges of an issue without looking at the 'causes'.

Oh and btw that taxi business:

Knowing all the precautions; knowing all the rules we should follow to lower the odds (ha ha ha he he he). I found myself staring into the eyes of a man who was red-eyed and angry; his teeth were actually bared. Just like a dog; imagine! And no I'm not equating men with dogs (but, but....). It is just the thing I was facing at the time. I was trapped in a taxi. The doors were locked (I tried them). There were no passers by. i looked. Just another taxi dropping another girly safely home. ha ha ha

What did I do? Eh? Self defence? Keys in eyes? Scream? Fight monumentally (like poor xxx strangled with the strap of her own camera. Precaution: no straps, necklaces, shoe laces, or tights. Poor dead xxx?)

Submit? Like poor granny (who lived but with scars).

Fight or flight. Doors locked (Precaution: child safety locks - safe child). Could just drive off into the distance.

Cost:benefit analysis ha ha ha

I froze.

I froze. ha ha ha and he went on talking; hissing. No idea what he said as he looked me up and down with red eyes and bared teeth. Not a clue. And then he paused and revved the engine.

And I unfroze!

I can't remember but at that point maybe I thought I don't want to be raped, assualted, murdered or to go on a date with this fucking guy.

Cost:benefit analysis. Do it and die anyway. Fight? Flight? Submit?

So I said:
"Let me out of this car now. My boyfriend is waiting for me. I'm late."

That was the best I could come up with... not the sharpest tool eh? Thick skulled dim witted.

And the fucker let me go. With a nice, big smirk on his face.

cost:benefit analysis

So the best precaution of all, perhaps, is a degree in criminal pyschology.

/smirk

[sniffy]

you're implying precautions are a bad idea. and of course people still get raped while taking precautions, thats because the precautions being taken are 'walk under a street lamp' instead of effective ones like 'wield a sword'.

cough reduce not eliminate cough.

i'm sure there's heaps of heart-wrenching rape stories, but we all get that rape sucks. hasn't this thread shown that emotion is extremely counter-productive when discussing rape? no one's gonna say 'wow i didn't realise how bad rape actually is, i've changed my mind' because what's being suggested by the realists is in the best interests of people, and with an understanding of the horror of rape.

had she not danced amongst a bunch of men (away from their gfs, at war - might die tomoro so doing whatever they want) would she have been as likely to have been raped? he did imply her dancing was his motivation.

They were all dancing; she was small. Had she been wearing high heels (they had them in those days you know) he might have chosen somebody else. And they were all dancing and all away from their women and they didn't all commit rape. Hmmm?

Do you get it?

[Gustav]

oh dear
i think i do

I think randists in the broadest sense feel victimized by people who do not share their philosophy. I think they have trouble distinguishing empathy from guilt. So part of the agenda here is to reduce the set of experiences one might have to feel empathy. In the specific case I think there is victim blaming here. It may be part of a broad victim blaming on his part and he is not specifically sexist. Or it may be part of a sexist attitude. I don't know. There is a strong need in some people to say that if I have it, I deserve it. Even if that thing that is had, is a state of, for example, not being raped, or not being poor, etc. Rand is often associated with free markets and money and that kind of independence and success. But success is much broader than that. It is kind of like if you refined the philosophy - not much, but some - of the cool people in high school, the cliche captain of the (men's) basketball team and the female counterparts - you know the cool, proud of themselves crowd - and turned their attitude - we are winners, and you clearly are not - into a kind of metaphysics and political stance. I am being very literal here. It is kind of like the New Agers with their positive thinking. There can be a kind of cursory sympathy for those who are not winners. But let's quickly move past that and analyze what they did wrong. And, of course, some people are just not cool.

Randians like to see themselves as monads. Connections to other people and noticing how their lives may in fact be intertwined with the problems of others are threatening to them,which is why for example, most Randians are men, because men are vastly more threatened by ideas of interconnection, and vastly more threatened by feelings of empathy, the two being interrelated.

Rand, Thatcher. Ah, the good, iron ladies.

fuck shit piss
i have been writing off the losers. the inept. like they are fucking collateral damage. i do have sympathy.....



...but a feeling of helplessness constructs bogus notions of inevitability as a defense mechanism

/

[codanblad]

Had she been wearing high heels (they had them in those days you know) he might have chosen somebody else.

Do you get it?

cool, you agree people can take precautions to lower their chances of rape. that's all i wanted, you seemed to be saying 'precautions do nothing' in another post.