Counterproposal: Don't dress like a slut...

[Gustav]

dressing in a certain way conveys no clues.

never mind the bitches
do you dress for the occasion?
why?

[Gustav]

Are these valid questions?

yes!
give me what i want. goddamn names
200 odd posts and no resoution?

[Tiassa]

even if the victim is known to the rapist, did the victim's clothes influence the rapist's decision?

Possibly. Depends on the rapist.

whether the rapist's motivation was sexual, or a need for power, or love of violence, or the adrenaline rush - did the victims clothes help them pick a target?

Possibly. Depends on the rapist.

does a girl in slutty clothes appear more vulnerable? wouldn't that appeal to rapists?

Possibly. Depends on the rapist.

What if part of the rapist's criteria is the appearance of innocence?

You know, when I was younger, part of the sport of being perpetually horny was spying whatever verboten elements of the opposite sex I could. Now, I can't pretend this is universal, but neither can we pretend it is unique. There are, after all, websites and newsgroups devoted to subjects like voyeurism, bras, and here's a great one to chuckle nostalgically at: panty lines.

What constitutes dressing like a slut? Our friend Gustav raises a point:

"you are not going out dressed like that, are you?" says mom

Because there is plenty that qualifies as not being slutty—even stuff her mom might have bought for her—that would allow a glimpse of a bra strap or the polka-dotted underwear, or ... whatever ... that might catch someone's attention.

So ... what if the rapist, being known to the victim, selects her not because she dresses like a slut, but rather because she doesn't? He may well have had plenty of opportunities to catch a glimpse.

Has she failed to protect herself against rape by wearing pants that fail to hide the fact that she doesn't wear a g-string?

• • •

... preclude you from contemplating any possibility of similarities between a male victim of violence, and a female victim of violence?

This topic derives from a discussion about catcalling, including the proposition that women who do not want to be constantly sexually harassed should dress conservatively. We did actually attempt to cover the issue of men being harassed, but the anti-slut faction couldn't come up with much:

"Yeah, its good policy not to walk past gay bars while wearing skintight jeans while displaying your six pack and rippling musculature, unless you're, well, gay." (#1864064/239)

The counterpoint to that—

Or maybe you're suggesting women should simply avoid anyplace where heterosexual men might be found? (#1864065/240)

—still awaits address.

As this thread originally concerned itself with a specific proposition applied to a mere fraction of rapes against women, we haven't yet made the transition to include male victims in this.

[phlogistician]

a convicted rapist, ja?
who here is arguing in behalf of him?

Straw man, nobody has defined that, I was picking holes in Codanblad's scenario. Stick to the topic.

[phlogistician]

never mind the bitches
do you dress for the occasion?
why?

Straw man, keep it in context, the context is women should dress conservatively to avoid the attention of rapists. Stick to the topic.

[Gustav]

Straw man, keep it in context, the context is women should dress conservatively to avoid the attention of rapists. Stick to the topic.

rapists?
as in convicted?
it is a forgone conclusion. the mentality is one where violence is an option in any endeavor.
why 200 odd posts tho? rehabilitation works?


how do you infer rapist as the context?
in detail please

[codanblad]

Straw man, nobody has defined that, I was picking holes in Codanblad's scenario. Stick to the topic.

i'd say you were desperately defying everything i say because you see everything in black and white. everything you say misses the point of what i've said. the park will be dark away from lamp posts. use ur fucking brain.

all i wanted to hear was tiassa's agreement, the idea of its possibility is all i was entertaining. and thank fucking god tiassa agreed, i was at the end of my tether trying to reach some kind of understanding between myself and people.

[whitewolf]

Women get raped even if they're not wearing anything slutty, even if they're covered up head to toe, even if they're not that pretty. There is nothing a woman can do to provoke a man to rape her.

[Gustav]

why do you make that assertion?

[Gustav]

if you don't like being harassed. (I couldn't fit all that in the title...)

Let me put it this way. If I rounded up a horde of mentally deranged man hating uberfeminists and roamed the countryside throwing napalm at any males who were out after dark, would you tell them they were asking for it and should have been sensible and 'taken precautions', since they were aware that me and my cohort of napalm-throwing misandrists were out on the rampage??!!

Nope, I thought not.

yes.
i would. heaven forbid someone die in my watch

[sniffy]

OP: Don't dress like a slut if if you don't like being harassed.

Synopsis of reactions:
1. She's "asking" for it...
Literally - desires it... OF COURSE NOT
2. It influences the "probability" of harassment....
Too inflammatory to discuss...

Debate: a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints

Analogy: a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based

So, sniffy, you ignoramus, do you refuse to debate this issue, or do your hormones simply preclude you from contemplating any possibility of similarities between a male victim of violence, and a female victim of violence?

I would suppose that your well thought out stance is simply - "Rape is bad, therefore we can't discuss it" .... therefore .... we can't entertain whether our actions influence our destinies, as it pertains to this subject?

Or, perhaps you have a much more pertinent argument that does not depend on hypotheticals?

I await your profound response...

My argument is not based on hypotheticals as your bathingsuit/business suit argument appears to be! I have pointed out that women of different ages, in varying form of dress and in a wide variety of locations are harassed and raped you will see that how they dress was not an issue. As the OP is about modes of attire in relation to harrassment and assault then I feel I have successfully put that one to bed.

If you want to talk about the similarities between male victims of violence and female victims of violence I suggest you start another thread with a different title such as;


Are there any similarities between female victims of violence and male victimes of violence?

What causes violence in society?

Or
In cases of violent assault; is it right to blame the victim?

Or
Is violence an acceptable tool for social control?

Or why are women who dress in a particular way constantly referred to as 'sluts' and what does that say about the attitude of men towards women?

Or even

If I go out in a bathing suit or a $2000 business suit am I increasing my chances of being assualted?

[codanblad]

Women get raped even if they're not wearing anything slutty, even if they're covered up head to toe, even if they're not that pretty. There is nothing a woman can do to provoke a man to rape her.

you're right that women get raped in all kinds of clothes.

do you think slutty clothes might entice a rapist though? a person who is capable or rape, but without a victim in mind, might be persuaded by his dick after seeing a chick wearing revealing clothes. rape can be an act of passion.

stories in aussie media said that lebanese gang rapists raped women who the lebs felt dressed like sluts. this is a clearcut case of 'dont dress like a slut to lower your chance of being raped'. so at least under some circumstances the argument held true.

i understand that in most cases rape is with people who know each other, and that its more to do with power than sex, blah blah blah i know the facts. all i'm saying is there are situations where rapists are influenced towards rape by what people wear.

[sniffy]

you're right that women get raped in all kinds of clothes.

do you think slutty clothes might entice a rapist though? a person who is capable or rape, but without a victim in mind, might be persuaded by his dick after seeing a chick wearing revealing clothes. rape can be an act of passion.

stories in aussie media said that lebanese gang rapists raped women who the lebs felt dressed like sluts. this is a clearcut case of 'dont dress like a slut to lower your chance of being raped'. so at least under some circumstances the argument held true.

i understand that in most cases rape is with people who know each other, and that its more to do with power than sex, blah blah blah i know the facts. all i'm saying is there are situations where rapists are influenced towards rape by what people wear.

Your consistent use of the word 'slut' is beginning to gall me. Just thought I'd mention it as it says RATHER a lot about you. May I suggest that you and your Lebanese friends have a good long think about the word 'slut' and what it says about you rather than what it says about the women to whom it is randomly applied. And whilst you're at it have a little think about what it might feel like to be gang raped. After you've had a little think about that imagine it was your little sister out there being branded a 'slut' and gang raped and then hold onto that feeling for a while.

You little slut.

[phlogistician]

rapists?
as in convicted?

Why is that important to you?

Seems you are trying to draw the debate. And failing.

Do you want to put some context around why you want to know if they are convicted?

Codanblad used the term 'rapist' in his scenario, because the person he mentioned intended to commit the act. I don't give a rat's ass if the person he envisages has been punished for it previously. I can't see what difference that makes, and it seems you are trying to nit pick.

[phlogistician]

i'd say you were desperately defying everything i say because you see everything in black and white.

Because it is black and white. It's black and white when you type the words 'slutty' and mean it. I say there is no such thing, and you shouldn't judge people on how they dress. You seem to think that hurling labels and denigrating women is OK though. You are wrong.

everything you say misses the point of what i've said. the park will be dark away from lamp posts. use ur fucking brain.

Dude, you are trying to explain this little fantasy scenario of yours, and contradicting yourself. Use your brain, and tell us how you fantasize stalking this woman. I don't share the fantasy, so can't fill out the details you omit.

[phlogistician]

does a girl in slutty clothes appear more vulnerable? wouldn't that appeal to rapists?

Women who can wear skimpy clothes are confident, not vulnerable. That's just your fantasy speaking.

[codanblad]

sniffy and phlogistician

whatever. i don't think you listen to a word i say, your 'womens rights' agenda overrides everything. you both think i'm a rapist or something, and perceive my posts as opportunities for you to attack me.

my use of the word slut comes from the title. i'm sorry i wasn't politically correct enough for you guys, but that's all there is to it. i wasn't denigrating women etc. Saying 'women dressing sluttily are more likely to get raped' is a statement, rather than an opinion. its either true or false, it doesn't stem from any kind of sexism, just my understanding of the motives of rapists. its only in league with the idea that dressing like a slut is asking to be raped, that it justifies rape, that it becomes despicable. and i abhor such a perspective.

if you guys don't think that there's a possibility a man's inclination to rape someone would be affected by attire, fine. agree to disagree, and lets move on. i don't think i have the patience to take the matter any further.

[sniffy]

sniffy and phlogistician

whatever. i don't think you listen to a word i say, your 'womens rights' agenda overrides everything. you both think i'm a rapist or something, and perceive my posts as opportunities for you to attack me.

my use of the word slut comes from the title. i'm sorry i wasn't politically correct enough for you guys, but that's all there is to it. i wasn't denigrating women etc. Saying 'women dressing sluttily are more likely to get raped' is a statement, rather than an opinion. its either true or false, it doesn't stem from any kind of sexism, just my understanding of the motives of rapists. its only in league with the idea that dressing like a slut is asking to be raped, that it justifies rape, that it becomes despicable. and i abhor such a perspective.

if you guys don't think that there's a possibility a man's inclination to rape someone would be affected by attire, fine. agree to disagree, and lets move on. i don't think i have the patience to take the matter any further.

Don't make assumptions about my agenda or what I think; you'll only make an ass of yourself.

As for political correctness - hah I just love how folks like to throw this out when they're caught in the headlamps with no-where to run. Rape is a brutal, personal, CRIMINAL assualt on another person; uninvited and undeserved. Rape has been used across the centuries to try to control and subjugate.

Attempts to blame women (oh if only were they to behave differently they wouldn't get raped!) are the bleatings of cowards seeking to justify the violently criminal behaviour of other cowards - or perhaps they are hoping they might get away with it themselves one day if they help perpetuate the bullshit....

[phlogistician]

sniffy and phlogistician

whatever. i don't think you listen to a word i say, your 'womens rights' agenda overrides everything.

You don't think women have rights then?

you both think i'm a rapist or something, and perceive my posts as opportunities for you to attack me.

I think your sympathies lie with rapists, and not the victims, if that makes my position any clearer for you?

my use of the word slut comes from the title.

Many people here have used quotes around the word to denote they are quoting the title. You however had said;

and when they dressed like a slut

does a girl in slutty clothes appear more vulnerable

You think that women dress like 'sluts'. You think there is a class of women who it's OK to label 'sluts', you denigrate women with every post you make and dig yourself in deeper.

Saying 'women dressing sluttily are more likely to get raped' is a statement, rather than an opinion. its either true or false,

If it's true or false, it is just your opinion. Once it's true, it's a fact, but so far no support has been given for the argument, so it remains your twisted opinion.

it doesn't stem from any kind of sexism,

Using the word sluttily is sexist.

just my understanding of the motives of rapists.

I don't understand those, but then, you are closer to the psychology of one than I am.

its only in league with the idea that dressing like a slut is asking to be raped, that it justifies rape, that it becomes despicable. and i abhor such a perspective.

There you go using the 'slut' word again. GROW THE FUCK UP.

if you guys don't think that there's a possibility a man's inclination to rape someone would be affected by attire, fine. agree to disagree, and lets move on. i don't think i have the patience to take the matter any further.

We can discuss the topic without you denigrating women. Your use of such words without quotation is very telling. You disgust me.

[lucifers angel]

sniffy and phlogistician

whatever. i don't think you listen to a word i say, your 'womens rights' agenda overrides everything. you both think i'm a rapist or something, and perceive my posts as opportunities for you to attack me.

my use of the word slut comes from the title. i'm sorry i wasn't politically correct enough for you guys, but that's all there is to it. i wasn't denigrating women etc. Saying 'women dressing sluttily are more likely to get raped' is a statement, rather than an opinion. its either true or false, it doesn't stem from any kind of sexism, just my understanding of the motives of rapists. its only in league with the idea that dressing like a slut is asking to be raped, that it justifies rape, that it becomes despicable. and i abhor such a perspective.

if you guys don't think that there's a possibility a man's inclination to rape someone would be affected by attire, fine. agree to disagree, and lets move on. i don't think i have the patience to take the matter any further.

what about the women who are raped in business suits, i think a man will rape for various reason,

1, he wants total control
2, he likes to instill fear into people
3, he thinks they ask for it by dressing with legs showing,
4, and he simply wants it, and will be anything to get it.
5, or he has becomme infatuated with the victim

obviously i know women rape aswell, i was using he has an example, if someone is going to rape then they will rape doesnt matter what they are wearing.

what about girls who were raped in the 20's and they were wearing a few layers of clothing, and they didnt show anything?