Moderate Faith vs Pure Atheism: Society

**SnakeLord** · 04-15-08, 06:37 PM

I see a rise in atheism correlates with a breakdown in individual, family and social structure. To me that is indicative of destruction.

Stats/sources please.

Should I really have to ask?

**shichimenshyo** · 04-15-08, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

I think so, that they would want to, ya know, "burn the cathedrals, burn the sistine chapel, burn jerusalem, burn the US constitution ( it mentions God), burn the US dollar bill, etc

It's everywhere, and removing it is a MASSIVE change.

Speculation!

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:37 PM

And no more respect for Washington? Lincoln? Constantinople? Richard the Lionheart?

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by shichimenshyo

Speculation!

Yes, but that speculation is based off of what I've seen of atheist thinking.

**shichimenshyo** · 04-15-08, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

Yes, but that speculation is based off of what I've seen of atheist thinking.

You can see thoughts? how unique.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by SnakeLord

Stats/sources please.

Should I really have to ask?

I somewhat agree with her, as with atheism there is nothing to specifically SET common ground for the people, whereas with religion family is very important and overall goodwill

Another thing: with a moderate form of faith in society comes a good form of goodwill and overall kindness and optimism, not necessarily seen in atheist communities.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by shichimenshyo

You can see thoughts? how unique.

you know what I mean........

**shichimenshyo** · 04-15-08, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

I somewhat agree with her, as with atheism there is nothing to specifically SET common ground for the people, whereas with religion family is very important and overall goodwill

Another thing: with a moderate form of faith in society comes a good form of goodwill and overall kindness and optimism, not necessarily seen in atheist communities.

Stats man stats!

**spidergoat** · 04-15-08, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

And you're quite right; I agree, if some other form of spirituality would take the place of religion (or at least, Abrahamic religion), then it's ok, as a common ground for the people HOWEVER when you compare England to Italy, there is a massive difference. IN England it is increasingly becoming more and more just about money and I think it's a DISGRACE to the English people. Whatever happened to loyalty to the King?

Also, look at the flag of Spain, the English Flag, the coats of arms and flags of so many European countries: there's a cross there.

It is possible that humans are still not sufficiently advanced to deal with reality without some stabilizing metaphor like religion. I don't recommend atheism for society, or even for other people. But that says nothing about the ultimate truth of religious concepts. People might be just as happy under the influence of some hypothetical perfect drug - soma.

Knowledge of reality isn't always a blessing. For instance knowing that the Earth is periodically bombarded by rocks miles wide could fill you with anxiety.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Why would they do that? If their reason is that religion is violent, then it makes no sense to also be violent.

It associates with religion. Again, the reason I think a moderate form of faith is beneficial is because of all of that, because of the values it promotes, because of the enhancement to culture and society and unity and common ground, because of the hope and optimism, and because it's part of Humanity. It just makes no sense to destroy it, because that's one step closer to pure expansionist, capitalist, business-like thinking, which isn't bad, but it is if there is no longer any of what I just described.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

It is possible that humans are still not sufficiently advanced to deal with reality without some stabilizing metaphor like religion. I don't recommend atheism for society, or even for other people. But that says nothing about the ultimate truth of religious concepts. People might be just as happy under the influence of some hypothetical perfect drug - soma.

It isn't about religion creaming up what is there, because as I said firstly we dont' even know if there is or there is not a God, but it is because religion provides a concept to channel the spirtual side of Humanity, which just can't be done in atheist societies, and yet it's such a massive aspect of society; it is an enhancing aspect of society.

And soma..............well, the people of Brave New World were atheist

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by shichimenshyo

Stats man stats!

Not everything can be proven with stats. Simply what I've noticed, that the religious have more dedication to their faction, loyalty, percerverence, goodwill, optimism, a unity, and emphasis on good moral behavior

**S.A.M.** · 04-15-08, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by SnakeLord

Stats/sources please.

Should I really have to ask?

All officially athiest societies have high incidence of suicide, substance abuse, alcoholism, divorce and social breakdown. Most of them started recovering only after they stopped forbidding religious practice.

**spidergoat** · 04-15-08, 06:46 PM

Please don't connect atheism to capitalism, they have nothing to do with one another. Religious people are engaged in moneymaking, they started it.

Above all, it doesn't follow that atheism wants to destroy religion or religious artifacts. It's not a religion, there is no "culture war". It's not one side against the other.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:46 PM

Remember, this isn't to debate whether religion is TRUE or not, but rather what kind of effects it has one society and the indivudal (in various forms, from nominal to extreme), how it impacts life (and how a lack or destruction of it would), and lastly, whether or not it is better than a purely atheistic, nonspiritual world.

**SnakeLord** · 04-15-08, 06:46 PM

All officially athiest societies have high incidence of suicide, substance abuse, alcoholism, divorce and social breakdown. Most of them started recovering only after they stopped forbidding religious practice.

Stats/sources please!

What is an "officially atheist society" anyway?

**spidergoat** · 04-15-08, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Norsefire

It isn't about religion creaming up what is there, because as I said firstly we dont' even know if there is or there is not a God, but it is because religion provides a concept to channel the spirtual side of Humanity, which just can't be done in atheist societies, and yet it's such a massive aspect of society; it is an enhancing aspect of society.

And soma..............well, the people of Brave New World were atheist

Atheism is not opposed to spirituality. In fact Buddhists and Taoists are theoretically atheist (I know there are some exceptions). These are some of the most advanced spiritual traditions on the planet.

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Please don't connect atheism to capitalism, they have nothing to do with one another. Religious people are engaged in moneymaking, they started it.

Above all, it doesn't follow that atheism wants to destroy religion or religious artifacts. It's not a religion, there is no "culture war". It's not one side against the other.

I am just saying the atheistic wouldn't mind such things as I've described and have nothing to ensure their dedication and contribution and goodwill toward society; that's what religion does.

And yes, I know they don't NEED it, but frankly I am not seeing it with atheists I've seen.

Besides, there would be such disregard for so much of Human history, it's a part of Humanity, and it should remain a part of Humanity, of who we are, of our identity. I am agnostic, but I think faith is here to stay, and should stay.

**S.A.M.** · 04-15-08, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Atheism is not opposed to spirituality. In fact Buddhists and Taoists are theoretically atheist (I know there are some exceptions). These are some of the most advanced spiritual traditions on the planet.

Let me see. Japan, China, Burma, Tibet, Sri Lanka?

**Norsefire** · 04-15-08, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by spidergoat

Atheism is not opposed to spirituality. In fact Buddhists and Taoists are theoretically atheist (I know there are some exceptions). These are some of the most advanced spiritual traditions on the planet.

I am understanding your point and you are correct; again, atheism does not mean there can't be spirituality, but what I am saying is that it simply isn't happening in what I observe of western society. The only reason atheists spring up is because all people care for is the media and the drugs and the money, rather than their country, family, honor, etc

That's my point; pure atheism is a breakdown with the current cultural trend.

Also Buddhists and Taoists are still RELIGIOUS. They are atheist because they do not believe in God, but they have their own set of beliefs.