Has Islam ever split?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Michael, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Has Islam ever split into other religions or are all beliefs that share some common Islamic myths and themes the same religion?

    1) Are the Bábi a split from Islam or are they run of the mill Good Muslims? Their founder Siyyid `Alí-Muhammad was an avenue through which continuing divine revelation could flow ... .... .... maybe there wasn't a Last Prophet after all.

    2) What about the Baha'i? Are they a split from Islam? Founded by Bahá'u'lláh they have a new Adam, a new peligious Perfect Book that replaces the Qur'an.

    3) What about the Druze? Does praying caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah as "a manifestation of God in His unity" mean they are or are not Muslims?

    4) What about the Ahmadiyya? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya movement, claimed to be the Mujaddid (reformer) of the 14th Islamic century as well as the Messiah, Mahdi and The Second Coming of Christ. Are they Good Muslims?

    5) What of the Alevi? Are they Shi'a? Some say yes, so say no.

    6) Speaking of Shi'a - are they Muslims? Some Sunni say no some say yes.

    7) How about the Yazidi? They Good Muslims? They do regard Mohammed as a prophet (Jesus is an angle).. but maybe Mohammad isn't the "Last" Prophet.

    8) What of the Barghawata? They followed a syncretic religion inspired by Islam (perhaps influenced by Judaism) with elements of Sunni, Shi'a and Kharijite Islam, mixed with astrological and heathen traditions. Supposedly, they had their own Qur'an comprising 80 suras under the leadership of the second ruler of the dynasty Salih ibn Tarif who had taken part in the Maysara uprising.

    9) How about the Ha-Mim ibn Mann-Allah ibn Harir ibn Umar ibn Rahfu ibn Azerwal ibn Majkasa or Abu Muhammad? Abu Muhammad proclaimed himself a prophet in 925 near Tetouan in Morocco.

    10) How about Sikhism? Curry flavored Islam or Indian Infidel?!?!?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    11) Almost forgot about the Kharijites? They initially supported the caliphate of the fourth and final Rightly Guided Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib, later rejected him. Funny that? I mean, I thought this was when everything was Oh La Dee Daa.... The World Perfect under the Perfect leadership of the Perfect Caliphs. (me thinks this little myth is really starting to unravel)

    So, it it true all of these religions are actually not splits in Islam or are they?

    Michael
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    Sunni & Shiites
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    According to the al-Azhar University, all Sunni and Shia Madhabs are under Islam (I'm almost certain the above fall into one or the other, but anyone who knows better may correct me. e.g. Bahaism is an offshoot of Shia Islam)

    Shia Islam was not taught in al Azhar university, which used to be the Sunni Islamic university. However, in the 1950s, Islamic scholars added them to the curriculum with a fatwa (1959)

    "The Shi'a is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought."

    I hear Bahaullah claimed divinity and was not recognised, but there has never been any official statement on them that I have ever heard. Last I read, very recently, their beliefs were being carefully studied to determine the legitimacy of their claim as Muslims

    http://www.bahai.org/persecution/egypt/bic_04-28-06_en

    Sikhs are not Muslims they are monothiests who follow the teachings of Guru Nanak.

    The rest like Deobandis etc are all sects named after reformers or places (like Wahabis are Sunni Muslims of the Hanafi Madhab who follow the reforms instituted by Abdul Wahab)

    People may have differing opinions but these are individual/state opinions, they do not have any religious sanction.

    The basic requirement of Islam is covered by the shahada.

    The Shahada is the Muslim declaration of belief in the oneness of God and acceptance of Muhammad as his prophet


    I think some people have added their own reformers to the basic shahada (like the Shias who include Hazrat Ali), where they have diverged in thought from the mainstream.

    Basic guideline:

    “Surely your Lord knows best who strays from His path, and knows best who follows the guidance.” (Quran, 53:30)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Some interesting points about baha'i

    In reference to the "Perfect" Qur'anic-entanglement, how is it that basic concepts and ideas like (1) Mohammad being the Last Prophet or (2) Jesus being crucified ARE about as clear as mud? Surely a Perfect Book could be at least a little clear on these major issues?!?!?

    Anyway, are we in agreement that the religion has split?

    Michael
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Did you find an official fatwa rejecting the claims of the Bahai by al Azhar university?

    Based on my own reading of the Bahai faith, they claim to be a syncretism of all world religions, not just Islam. So practically they are not Muslims (they pray towards Haifa, Israel not Mecca, for instance). However, they practice tauheed and recognise Mohammed as a prophet (and also other prophets). So theoretically they are.
    Apparently though they consider themselves a separate religion:
    So it makes them not a split in Islam but by their own declaration, not Muslims.

    I have to say I am surprised. Apparently the problem is they do not consider themselves Muslims but their belief in tauheed and the Quran means that they are considered a (heretical) sect of Islam by other Muslims. Go figure.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Apparently the Egyptian court has acquiesced their desire for independence

    Which means they consider themselves a new religion, not under Islam.

    However they have not been officially dismissed by al Azhar. .:shrug:
     
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    So the Baha'i are or are not a split in the religion?

    Also, what exactly would a "split in the religion" entail? It seems to me that Baha'i, by theirs and others reckoning, have split off from mainstream Islam.

    Michael
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    According to al Azhar they are a sect of Shia Islam. According to the Bahai's they are a new religion.

    To be considered a split, they'd have to consider themselves Muslims while al Azhar rejected them.

    This is the reverse situation.
    I think based on what the Bahais themselves think, al Azhar should allow them to be separated if they wish, into a new religion. Its confusing because technically they are not takfirs
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2008
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Why is this your definition?

    You stated:
    the Quran is, is a guideline. If you follow its philosophy in entirety, there is very little dissent between Muslims. Its why there has never been a split in the religion even though there are numerous numerous sects.


    What exactly was your point?
    What do you mean Islam has never "split"? Obviously you didn't mean "sects" I assumed you meant split into a new beleif system.

    Michael
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I mean officially you fall under one of the Madhabs, either Sunni or Shia, all of which are officially the right way to worship.

    According to the now famous Shia fatwa:
    The point is, no sect has the choice of being a splinter. If officially you are not recognised as a Muslim, you are out of Islam. And if you are recognised, you are not out, even if you wish to be.
     
  13. Kadark Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,724
    The Baha'i are not a split in Islam. They're their own religion, with no official affiliation with Islam - regardless of what they say. It doesn't take much research to discover that they're not Muslims, but rather followers of their own religion. I take offense to people who say the Baha'i are a part of Islam.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Actually the Bahai insist they are not Muslims.

    But there are many Islamic scholars who believe as Maududi does:
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2008
  15. Kadark Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,724
    Good. I'm getting pretty damn frustrated with the variation of beliefs throughout the Muslim world, anyway. The concept of Sunni/Sh'ite/[insert denomination here] should be eradicated.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    You'd have to grow considerably more tolerant of diversity for that. I think its possible to have syncretism between the sects if people only realise that the aim of Islam is not to decide what other people should believe.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    So do you consider the Baha'i a new Religion or they are Muslims?

    Kadark is voting New Religion.

    How do you define a Spit in the Religion? They maintain some myths about the Qur'an as well as about Mohammad. If they are, as you suggest, a New Religion - then what is their connection with Islam if not a Split from the orthodoxy? What adjective are you going to use to describe their affiliation with Islamic mythology if not "split"?

    Also, SAM, when you stated: the Quran is, is a guideline. If you follow its philosophy in entirety, there is very little dissent between Muslims. Its why there has never been a split in the religion even though there are numerous numerous sects.

    What exactly was your point in making such a statement?

    How do you determine when a religion has "split" off and (I presume) formed a new religion and when a religion has formed a "sect". Can you give an example?


    Are the Protestants a split from Catholicism or a Sect?
    Are Mormons a split from Christianity or a New Religion?

    When I think New Religion I'm thinking of something akin to Scientology. Lets not forget that the Baha'i were all Muslims at the time of the "split".
     
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    Kadark,

    Do you consider Sikhs to be Muslims?

    Was Sikhism a "split" in The Religion?

    Michael
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Michael:

    Just read the quote from Maududi in post #11; although I do not agree with much of his synthesis, in this part he and I are in agreement.

    No one can decide what another Muslim should believe.

    As Maududi elaborates in his Fitna-e-Takfir





    On my part, I believe the Bahai to be Muslims, because they follow the essentials of the shahada

    La ilaha il-Allah, Muhammed ur-rasoolulluah

    (There is )No god but God, and Mohammed is His Prophet.

    If they do not wish to consider themselves as Muslims that is fine by me.
     
  20. Kadark Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,724
    There is no concept of Sunni, Shi'ite, or any other politically-guided denomination in Islam. Retaining your culture is one thing, but interpreting your religion differently from others and classifying yourselves as varying groups is another. You may enjoy watching your religion be dissected and divided continuously, but I certainly don't. Denominations are a terrible idea, almost always based on politics. Politics should not encourage different interpretations of religion.

    I don't care about their beliefs. They are NOT Muslims. Stop making such a mess out of a straightforward topic.

    Are you stupid? Sikhs are not Muslims, obviously. You're in over your head. Quit making absurd connections.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2008
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,285
    S.A.M.,

    What do you consider a "split" - how do you know a "split" when you see one? Are the Sikhs a split from Islam?

    Is Islam a Split from Christianity or an entirely New Religion? I thought Muslims consider Islam to be a continuation of Christianity and Judaism, not a split.

    It seems Baha'i could be considered a continuation if Islam in exactly the same way Islam is a continuation of Christianity? New Prophet, New Perfect religious Book, ect.. etc.. etc..

    Michael
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    I consider Protestanism to be a split from Christianity. A split to me means there are irreconciliable differences regarding the same religion.

    Sikhs (for the nth time) have nothing to do with Islam.
    I'm willing to recognise that. They consider the Quran holy, accept Muhammed as a Prophet and believe in one God.
     
  23. Kadark Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,724
    They also consider Baha'u'llah to be a manifestation of God. Are you willing to recognise that? Let me guess, I need to read it in Arabic.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     

Share This Page