03-04-08, 04:24 AM #141
03-04-08, 08:02 AM #142
03-04-08, 10:00 AM #143
Its the new boss, same as the old boss, but better able to mask his intentions. Or not. Depending on how you consider the targeting of theists to be especially different than the targeting of atheists or infidels.
03-04-08, 10:16 AM #144
Or that Stalins persecution of the religious or his attempt to wipe out the unmodern unscientific dogma of religion was not due to his atheism?
A minute ago you accepted it was political motivation, acquiring assets and disbanding the opposition, now you seem to have flip-flopped. Which end are you playing, Sam?
03-04-08, 10:21 AM #145
03-04-08, 11:28 AM #146
Not due to atheism, though, unlike the many religiously inspired massacres.
03-04-08, 11:40 AM #147
The problem here is that the Atheist cannot claim that all these Atheist (NO GOD) regimes who committed horrible atrocities had nothing to do with their being Atheist then point their fingers at religion and call these conflict religiously inspired.
Edit: on another forum i seen someone claiming a particular religion was bad because they pointed to two violent cases as their proof, two cases out of billions of people is proof?
03-04-08, 01:22 PM #148
These weren't just regimes with no concept of God. They also happened to be smokers, disbelievers in the flying spaghetti monster, and communists. It's completely irrelevent that their leader happened to not believe in God.
However, it is relevent when massacres of Jews were inspired by the Passion Plays, or massacres of women were inspired by the original sin of Eve, or the deaths of Muslims were inspired by the crusades.
03-04-08, 01:25 PM #149
03-04-08, 01:51 PM #150
Where did that ever happen where people were following the non-existent tenets of atheism and not some other ideology like communism, socialism, class-warfare, ethnicity, race, etc...?
Last edited by spidergoat; 03-04-08 at 02:18 PM.
03-04-08, 08:47 PM #151
With that out of the way I continue to object to the way you measure evil, and to glibly insist that there is no important difference between the one-god faction and the zero-god faction except for the debatable thesis that atheism is responsible for a larger mountain of human corpses.
Even accepting that thesis for the sake of the argument, we must still face the fact that all human lives are ultimately finite and that sooner or later almost every one of us will be unmourned. The whole point of civilization is that it is an organism unto itself that transcends the lives of the mortals who build and maintain it. The immortality we seek is not in some imaginary afterlife, but in our civilization. Civilization is qualitatively more important and more valuable than we are.
Civilizations are rare and irreplaceable. To destroy a civilization is qualitatively worse than murdering almost any number of people. To destroy three civilizations--half of the six we managed to create--as the Children of Abraham have done, is the greatest evil that has ever been performed.
I cannot hold every individual Abrahamist responsible for this, since most people of any stripe are not that familiar with world history. But I can and will forever hold it up as the ultimate rejection of any educated Abrahamist with the temerity to argue that his religion has, on the balance, been a force for good in the world. The evil of Abrahamism is, at least so far, unmatchable.
03-04-08, 09:08 PM #152
The way I see it, even Genghis Khan went on to establish a society that was both admired and emulated.
While, if you add up the religious and political persecution of all the known atheists in positions of power, not one could create a society until they acceded to the peoples desire for religious freedom, and even then only societies that others like them would choose to emulate. In the meantime, their toll on those societies was unbelievable.
Look it up if you don't believe me.
Last edited by S.A.M.; 03-04-08 at 09:27 PM.
03-04-08, 09:19 PM #153
If there have been six civilizations and Abrahamists have destroyed three, then we'd better get going on the soil erosion problem... between it and the Abrahamists, we don't stand a chance.
Soil Erosion Destroys Civilizations
03-05-08, 02:43 AM #154
Originally Posted by SAM
It's the bossed, same as the other bossed, that is at issue.
No argument based on the personal beliefs of people who have gained power has anything to do with the majority of the problems of theistic religion as identified by evangelical atheists of various kinds. The "evangelical atheist" (meaning any that publically criticise theistic religion in any terms or manner) does not much care whether the Pope who set the Spanish Inquisition in motion was sincerely theistic or not.
You have seen posts going through some major horrors of recent times, and been pointed to their theistic religious context. I have pointed out that atheists are found even in the hierarchies of established theistic religions - that does not change their effects, or answer the accusations of the "evangelical atheists".
Mindreading mass murderers misses the point.
Last edited by iceaura; 03-05-08 at 02:52 AM.
03-05-08, 04:03 AM #155
03-05-08, 04:10 AM #156
Atheists may have committed atrocities, but they were not inspired to do so by their atheism. There is no credo, no gospel, nothing to inspire you in atheism, so please explain just how you think that could happen.
Religion does entice people to kill, however. The God of the OT commanded people to go to war, you cannot deny that.
03-05-08, 07:06 AM #157
To the point of the OP, athiest are not immune from the desire to crusade any more than theists are, and all the finger pointing and body counting doesn't change that. There is something more fundamental going on here, because ideas don't kill people. People kill people.
03-05-08, 08:25 AM #158
Originally Posted by turduckin
I don't think there is any natural desire to Crusade that anyone would need immunity to avoid feeling. It's one thing to want to gang up and do shit, it's another thing entirely to organize into an army and set out on a thousand mile rampage. The sense of mission required for that isn't just lying around in the back of the mind on a nice summer afternoon.
Maybe if we dropped the "killing people" subject, and picked something that people don't want to deny, for starters. How about barn-raising, Amish style ? The situation is: every so often the local Amish community gets together and builds a barn, which then belongs to just one guy - the community has no more control over it, and he treats it as his own personal possession, without his having paid or recompensed anyone involved.
My claim is that religion has something to do with that custom - that with a different religion, or none, that custom would not exist. As evidence I point to the rarity of that custom among even very similar people, only without the religion. That you can't explain that kind of organized community behavior by appealing to individual human nature. (The religion involved is theistic. )
03-05-08, 09:44 AM #159
03-05-08, 11:33 AM #160
Buddhist societies are atheistic. The long-term survival of Tibet, for instance, was threatened by their essentially peaceful nature. An Islamic-style guerilla war would have been easy in the mountains of Tibet. Instead, it's a part of China now.
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