Do you ever wonder ... well, why?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Feb 19, 2008.

?

Role model? Hero?

  1. Yeah. Why not?

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. What? No!

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. You're joking, right? This isn't actually real ... uh ... right?

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  4. Er ... um ... is there an "Other" vote? (Fair enough, but explain yourself.)

    1 vote(s)
    11.1%
  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Yeah. Seriously. Do people of faith ever actually wonder why so many people are hostile toward the idea of organized religion?

    In this case, do American Christians ever actually wonder why they get so much heat in the public arena?

    There are, in fact, several answers, ranging from the increasing liberation of other paradigms in our society to, well, the downright stupid. Such as this:

    Now, let's be clear. It does, to a degree, take some stones to confess to a murder you think you've gotten away with. But let's remember, also, that Christians believe in redemption, a bit of a sticky issue, since the criteria are difficult to pin down as you go from Christian to Christian and community to community. Perhaps confessing to God is important, but continuing to hide the fact from your community might be problematic. It's a matter of faith.

    But this ... this doesn't even seem to be an issue. I admit I'm having a hard time with it. I met a fellow this weekend who puzzled me a bit with his outlook on God and Christ, but it was nothing compared to this.

    You know ... like I said, it takes some stones to confess when you've had a fourteen-year run. But I'm not sure how comfortable I would feel living near a church community where law and justice are "extra". The implications are troubling, to say the least.

    And yet ... I mean, come on, you knew that wasn't the end, right?

    And yet—

    this is a role model?

    Um ... what the hell is this? Seriously, this sounds like The Onion.

    I'm not sure what to say. This is what Christianity does to people's minds, is one thing that occurs to me.

    I mean, obviously it's a stretch to apply this notion to all Christianity. But really, what the hell?
    _______________________

    Notes:

    Associated Press. "Flock forgives minister who confesses to 1994 slaying". CNN.com. February 18, 2008. See http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/02/18/minister.confesses.ap/index.html
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. draqon Banned Banned

    Messages:
    35,006
    I am my own God
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    of course they do. Its Satan at work.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    33,264
    Perhaps because it doesn't make sense and when someone tells you that their religion is the ONLY way to heaven they get rather pissed off. In todays society we have allot of common sense and when someone tells us there's a supreme being with magic powers watching us it just doesn't make any sense and we don't like to be fooled and used as stupid minions doing the bidding of others only for their well being and profit making.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. sandy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    7,926
    I am a person of faith and I am hostile toward organized religion. Religion is man-made. I just follow the Word of God (Bible) and Jesus Christ/God. The rest is easy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,515
    no, i don't wonder one bit. you know i love jesus with all my heart and don't want a damn thing to do with organized religion for the reasons you're talking about here (not this specific one, as there are so many to choose from). in a more general sense, organized religion seems to be a replacement for what is supposed to be a very personal relationship with god, and so is counter to what is taught in the very doctrine that they're supposed to be believing in.

    a murderer a role model? i don't think so. a demon, no. but a human being, like all of us, yeah. it's a shame when someone does the right thing that it's so unusual they're labeled a hero isn't it? what does that say to our children?
     
  10. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,309

    Kelley Graham, as in Billy Graham's daughter?? She ignored the fact that the Bible says explicitly that we first be reconciled with the wronged, then to God...or else our offerings won't be accepted. There was no extra step, no beyond the call of duty.

    It is an honorable thing to admit your mistakes. And, from the Christian perspective, once he has served his time and paid his dues, he would be accepted as if he had not committed the crime.

    I just hope that they are more supportive to the victim's family.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    Notes Around

    And yet you cling to your identity as a "CCR", which is in itself a form of organized religion despite the fact that its connection to Christian faith is merely nominal.

    Oh, come now, Sandy. We've been through this so many times. Look, I know you think of it as a personal attack, but you really do seem to carry your Christian identity around like a club. I mean, I'm just not sure what part of the Bible licenses your mean spirit and vicious tongue. And that whole thing with faith vs. acts seems, as it is with so many of your CCR and evangelical neighbors, a calculated "misunderstanding" that licenses their claims of Christianity despite very un-Christian behavior. Of course, I may have simply missed that part of the Bible. Where does Jesus say we should go around calling one another losers and pieces of shit? And where does Jesus say that the divisions of people instituted by men trump the promise of God's kingdom?

    A couple of notes from Matthew:

    We've been through this before. A few times at least. And, although your response, when you deign to give one, is to whine and complain about personal attacks, the issues of faith remain.

    The short list:

    #1630655/56, November, 2007
    #1665529/111, December, 2007
    #1668234/41, December, 2007​

    And these, like the above citations, involve doctrinal perceptions and understandings. You've done nothing over time to address the actual Biblical issues. In December, I also noted that, "I thought part of the point of Christian faith was to walk a path set by Jesus, not to exploit your forgiveness and treat the world like shite."

    And that last is interesting to me because you recently brought it back into focus: "Born-again Christians know the only way to Heaven is by 'accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior'. It has nothing to do with works/good deeds/charity."

    I found it interesting that you would raise that point without having resolved the outstanding issues from the December issue about walking the path set by Jesus. I mean, you did argue that Jesus wants you to keep sinning, which is absurd.

    You know, back in November (see link above), I suggested some possibilities of what you might be instead of a genuine Christian. And here's the thing, Sandy. You are willing to make general statements like the one about accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, or that Jesus doesn't want a break from your constant sinning and wants to be part of your decisions to sin and the sins themselves, but you never really do get any deeper than that. The superficiality of your expressions of faith are part of what people find so damnably offensive about you.

    And so when you pop up to reaffirm your "Christianity" with a vapid post like #5 in the current topic, I really do wonder if you expect people to see your "contribution" as anything more than trolling. You consider yourself Christian, which is part of an organized religion. You follow the Bible, which is a product of organized religion. I really do think it would be interesting and helpful if you could give us something a little more genuine than self-affirmation tailored to avoid the more general discussion taking place.

    To take your neighbor, Lori 7 as an example ....

    • • •​

    I'm going to flip a coin on this one. Part of me agrees, but another part of me says things aren't so dire, and that it's this particular congregation, or a mentality shown by a limited number of people that think like them. I don't think we're entirely out of heroes, although I'm hard-pressed to name any right now. I don't think we're out of role models, either. In fact, of the latter, I would say we've many among us to the point that I wouldn't know where to start.

    And none of this should suggest that Inman's story is without value. Even after we do wrong, there is a right thing to do. A number of questions do arise, though, and some of them may not be fair. I think of when his time is served and he is back in the community; would his neighbors be any more or less comfortable if the confessed murderer living next door was black or Hispanic? And, you know, that's really a question for when and if it ever actually comes up.

    I do find the standard unsettling, though. Does Ms. Graham, for instance, really mean to imply that confessing to God is enough that his neighbors should feel comfortable? I mean, if one confesses to God, but not to the police, does that mean enough, and everything's okay, and that's all that is required for justice? Because there's a fourteen year-old murderer in California who could really use that kind of a standard right now.

    And how tragic is it that Ms. Thac should be compelled to make this about "men" instead of people? We might read a few things into that, and perhaps some of those would be reasonably accurate, but is the unusual nature of confession and accountability representative of a general dearth, or is it a community thing?

    Instead of worrying about what this particular occasion says to the children, part of me wants to worry more about the conditions that lead to such a state, and the effects those conditions have on the children.

    My two cents, for now.

    • • •​

    I'm going to doubt it on this one.

    Would they let him take care of their kids? Okay, much like I noted to Lori, that's probably not a fair question right now. Although I would go so far as to suggest that American prison systems, in general, might complicate that outcome, as well.

    • • •​

    A general note on the topic

    A couple of our neighbors have noted that they are of faith, yet dislike organized religion. As I noted in one of the prior sections of this post, Christian faith is itself part of organized religion, and the Bible, which is the primary source for defining that faith is a product of organized religion.

    Additionally, around Sciforums, there is much hostility shown toward Christianity, especially within a political context. Denigrations of "Jesusland" and "the Christian right" often sting, and it is not unusual that some Christians view this as a bigotry against Christianity in general. And while in some cases this might be true, what we have in this case is a very acute representation of something that so many of us who are not of the faith are aware of. There is something askew about the Christian voice in the public discourse, whether in heated political debates about abortion or homosexuals, or in attempting to define and explain the Christian phenomenon.

    The age of the internet has presented me with a face and voice of Christianity that is leagues removed from the faith my grandmother tried to instill. It is so different from what they tried to teach us as youths in the Lutheran church. It is unrecognizable compared to the sentimental beauty of Catholic yearning, or the well-intended faith of the Quakers I knew. What the Digital Age has brought us is an ugly face of faith. It is well enough to accept that any moron with a connection can be published digitally. And for some reason, the discussion has drifted significantly in that direction. Has faith really changed so much, or has Christianity simply been hijacked by bad faith? Are we finally seeing the fruits of ignorance? After all, I might speak well of Christian faith in my youth, but it wasn't enough to keep me in the flock. Rather, while I disagreed then, at least the faithful didn't seem so ... well ... stupid.

    Thus, to give my neighbor Lori 7 the faith and credit of being genuine—and is there a reason I should not?—we need to understand that even those two paragraphs appear the aberration.

    Like a guy I met over the weekend. He wanted to talk for a few moments about religion in light of an exchange he had witnessed (that involved me giving someone else practical advice about their outlook on religion). He explained that he was a man of science who believed in God, and would not have faith except that he thought it could be proven. And while some might attack Christians as naive or deluded, he believed the opposite was true. Non-Christians, he explained, were deluded and ignorant ... but, as he put it, "I'm not attacking anybody". An associate and I exchanged a glance, and let the point go. We were representatives, in that specific moment, of someone else's good name. And that's the thing. I don't doubt that it stings to be called naive or deluded for believing and submitting to a fairy-tale that can't be shown true. And yet it's not supposed to sting to be called ignorant and deluded for not believing what cannot be shown true?

    I understood the guy's point about as well as I'm capable. He was generally very well-spoken. But that bit about not attacking anybody struck me. If someone says something about him, it's an attack. If he says it about someone else, though?

    And this, even, is part of what confuses the infidels. I expect to hear from this fellow in the near future, so instead of forming a set judgment, I should look forward to further enlightenment about his perspective. Nonetheless, there are certain eccentricities about the faith that we infidels perceive, and while it may seem a leap to go from one removed discussion to a bizarre situation in Texas, the elevation of a confessed murderer as a hero and role model is emblematic of the dangers many of us perceive abut the faith.

    For many, this is also about as benign as it gets. This particular manifestation is tragic at best, but other expressions of the convergence of circumstances may well only get worse from here.

    Time will tell.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2008
  12. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    Just keep in mind it's not all chrisitans....just most of them.
    They've been lied to for so long...just look a North Korea...Do you really blamed those people for hating America? That's what happens when you're fed lies day in and Day...

    The only sad sorry fact is that these people are not being forced to do so.
     
  13. K.FLINT Devil's advocate :D Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    225
    The bible is written by man. The council of trent made sure the bible only had what they wanted to have in it and left out many books. I have always failed to see why one would say religion is made up but the bible is real, given the fact that again the bible was made by the same people who made the religion in the first place.

    had you said the 10 commandments I would have agreed because god or no god those are rules anyone should follow to be a good person.
     
  14. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,553
    Where do you suggest they find the truth ?
     
  15. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    Congrats. Step1 to Enlightenment is accomplished. Religion IS Man made.

    Step2 - who wrote the "Word of God" - Bible?
     
  16. Myles Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,553
    It gets worse, the more one thinks about it. How many Christian denomonations/ sects are there, all basing their views on a particular interpretation of the Bible. It can mean anything one wants it to and that is exactly what is going on.

    If we look elsewhere we find the Koran, the Upanishads, the Baghavad Gita, the Torah and the Pali canon, among others. Not only do Christians disagree amoung themselves; they reject the scriptures of other religions.


    Blessed are the blinkered.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,884
    I'm all for the protection of religion under the First Amendment. Your note, however, reinforces the need for a certain discussion in the public arena. What does that protection include? John McCain said last year that Christianity was a prerequisite of being president. We can only wonder how "oppressed" some Christians would feel if some famous mouth shot off that Christianity was a disqualifying factor for the presidency. There's that Catholic nutcase, Bill Donohue, who thinks Catholics are oppressed by a Kevin Smith film (Dogma), or a joke made by a college student ("Tuition is going down like an altar boy"). For some reason there are some who feel oppressed that a theological assertion lacking a testable hypothesis is not considered scientific. Apparently, the right of homosexuals to marry the person they love oppresses Christians. To many non-Christians, these notions seem absurd.

    Christians choose to believe what they do. And while the current generations are, certainly, victims to some degree, I'm not sure how we go about addressing that issue or the challenges it presents. In more substantial arguments of social justice, people tend to call for sacrificial lambs. In race relations, those lambs would be blacks and Hispanics. In the war of the sexes, they would be women. I don't trust this theory because it depends on good faith, which seems largely absent in recent years. That that absence is the culmination of Christian influence in American society is merely ironic; it doesn't mean we should call yet more lambs to the slaughter.

    But where, to borrow Myles' point, should they find truth? Perhaps more appropriately, how can they be brought to reconciliation? Right now the irrational prevails, and, to consider recent claims of oppression, any attempts to insert a rational perspective into these church communities might well result in further alienation. It would be difficult to assert that they have crossed a line of no return. Nonetheless, there is something tremendously disturbing about the implications of this case. Some of this church community think it would be wrong to send him to prison for murder.

    The symptom is, in this case, acute. What can be done?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Feibel, Carolyn. "Church flock has forgiven slaying suspect who confessed". Houston Chronicle. February 17, 2008. See http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/religion/5549245.html
     
  18. kazakhan Registered Abuser Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    915
    Point and laugh...
     
  19. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,346
    *************
    M*W: You claim to follow the bible, but the bible is also man-made.
     
  20. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,515
    Man-made or not, nothing is outside of the will of God. It's just that some of us aren't stupid enough to allow ourselves to be indoctrinated into the hypocrisy that goes on in many religious institutions. I've listened to some decent sermons. Some of them feed the hungry, and provide other humanitarian services. But when they act like they own God, and attempt to take the place of Christ, and represent that indoctrinization in the institution is a subsitute for a personal relationship with God, then that's blasphemous.
     
  21. Pinocchio's Hoof Pay the Devil, or else.......£ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,106
    ignore post
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2008
  22. pharaohmoan The illusion is you, let go. Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    308
    I agree and it infuriates me that people think they are gods buddy or something. They cannot think outside of the box and apply the logic that if there is a God (which for me is logical) then he is gonna be so far removed from your average human that as you rightly claim have a personal relationship with God would indeed be blaphemous. Sometimes I wonder if the church is so stuck in dogma and tradition that it is actaully alienating churchgoers from God. If I were looking down on the church right now the first thing I would say is you have 10's of millions of churchgoers plus donations and yet all you have done is built a few places of worship which preach the same thing, sing the same psalms and quote the same passages over and over again and it's been that way for thousands of years. WHAAAAAT! Can you imagine how that power in the right hands could have led society instead of the ingorant and stagnant state we find ourselves in today.

    Grrrrrrrrrrr :itold:
     
  23. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,721
    Who are you to judge blasphemy? You yourself are acting like you "own" god.
     

Share This Page