National Service?

[Asguard]

Challenger78 its a moot point here because the consitution wont alow it for the same reason we cant have an english style health care system. Conscription is banned by the consitution and the high court held that a NHS style health system was conscription, i doubt they would say that forcing all kids to join the army would be judged as anything less than conscription

Oh and to whichever of you said that it would stop kids killing themselves, you do realise the suicide rate in the millatry, especially in basic training is just as high if not higher than the general population and thats after psycological testing before you can join

As i said i would have less of a problem with this if we were talking about a comunity organisation like the scouts or a comunity service organisation like st johns, the CFS, surf lifesavers, SES ect.

[USS Exeter]

No way, this is not f**king Sparta. People should do whatever they want to pursue happiness the way they want to and strive for the goals that they want to achieve.

[hypewaders]

If the OP had provided for multitudinous options for national service, including positive (+ for young Americans and those they meet) federal internships enabling learning and travel, I would have considered clicking "yes". Travel the world, see new places, see strange people, and kill them- That's not a constructive activity for young USAmericans. All sorts of more worthwhile and formative government programs could be opened up for young citizens, such as the Peace Corps. At worst, it's a great opportunity for starting a CIA career.

[K.FLINT]

Hell yes.

I think that all americans should be given education in exchange for military service. everyone should be educated by the military in the last 2 years of high school and go through 1 year of active service, in exchange for a paid college tuition.

The rewards would be great, as in discipline, team work, and a mental and personal inner strength. It would also insure that all members of our society would be educated well and have a paid way to college.

Also note that many of our problems with youth is because of crime, drugs and poverty. Though this seems drastic it would phase out many problems we as a nation now face.

Military service is NOT limited to cleaning a gun or killing [ as others would have you think] a huge % of the military is non combat services.

Jobs of a non combat nature far exceed those that concentrate on combat. cooks, drivers, construction, engineering, adminastration, not to mention information services, computer services, nurses, doctors, and lawyers. The list goes on and on so a normal trade and a firm education would be given in the 3 years of service and further education would be paid for in full.

I think that the long and short of it is that by agreeing to military service would create a better educated and more responsible member of society.

[hypewaders]

K. Flint: "Military service is NOT limited to cleaning a gun or killing [ as others would have you think] a huge % of the military is non combat services."

Yup, & a lot of jobs in porn aren't about heartless fucking. So consider a career in porn, kids!

[K.FLINT]

K. Flint: "Military service is NOT limited to cleaning a gun or killing [ as others would have you think] a huge % of the military is non combat services."

Yup, & a lot of jobs in porn aren't about fucking.

This would be a true comparison if you really belive that the man who makes video camera is envolved in porn.

The number of people in the military that will never see or handle a gun after basic training is far greater then the number of active combat soldiers.

[hypewaders]

K. Flint: "This would be a true comparison if you really belive that the man who makes video camera is envolved in porn."

Yours would be a true comparison if we had to construct our own rifles, aircraft, submarines, etc. in the Armed Forces. I only recall firing and crewing. Did I miss something?

"The number of people in the military that will never see or handle a gun after basic training is far greater then the number of active combat soldiers."

Basic training requires the indoctrination of young people to kill and be killed upon (lawful) orders, with minimal hesitation for thought, and an eternity to follow. If you really believe that's wholesome for impressionable minds, I wouldn't want you alone with my kids, or even my dog.

[Challenger78]

Challenger78 its a moot point here because the consitution wont alow it for the same reason we cant have an english style health care system. Conscription is banned by the consitution and the high court held that a NHS style health system was conscription, i doubt they would say that forcing all kids to join the army would be judged as anything less than conscription

Oh and to whichever of you said that it would stop kids killing themselves, you do realise the suicide rate in the millatry, especially in basic training is just as high if not higher than the general population and thats after psycological testing before you can join

As i said i would have less of a problem with this if we were talking about a comunity organisation like the scouts or a comunity service organisation like st johns, the CFS, surf lifesavers, SES ect.

I agree, Those things should have a rotational period. But for Discipline, NS is still the better choice.

If the constitution doesn't allow it, then fine. we won't bother. But if the option was open... I'd give it consideration.
NS wasn't such a bad thing in other countries that I've lived in. (singapore). However, I will admit that while the training is good, It can condition people to be subservient. That said, There is huge opportunities for leaders in the military.

Yes, It is true, people in the military can be heartless conservative bastards. However, there is a reason why the leadership of this country(Australia) is civillian, It is to prevent the military from becoming too powerful and merciless. Thats why a Civilian must be in charge of a war. (while the generals and such can direct tactics, the civillian must ensure morality.) Of course, many then try to micromanage and then you get screw ups.

[K.FLINT]

K. Flint: "This would be a true comparison if you really belive that the man who makes video camera is envolved in porn."

Yours would be a true comparison if we had to construct our own rifles, aircraft, submarines, etc. in the Armed Forces. I only recall firing and crewing. Did I miss something?

"The number of people in the military that will never see or handle a gun after basic training is far greater then the number of active combat soldiers."

Basic training requires the indoctrination of young people to kill and be killed upon (lawful) orders, with minimal hesitation for thought, and an eternity to follow. If you really believe that's wholesome for impressionable minds, I wouldn't want you alone with my kids, or even my dog.

Did you go to A school? were you trained for non combat service? or did your ASVAB results place you as a grunt? It seems that YOUR military service was not a good one but if all you came away with was "how to kill" then you went in and came out with your eyes and mind shut.

well, as for your last statement it's nice to see that your limited view on things has led you to attack a person who's view that you do not agree with rather then come up with a well thought out view of your own...

I may not agree with what you say but I defend your right to say it with my life

[Asguard]

Ok forget the consitution and lets debate the point as if that wasnt an issue (hell no one in policy is going to read this anyway)

"Yes, It is true, people in the military can be heartless conservative bastards. However, there is a reason why the leadership of this country(Australia) is civillian, It is to prevent the military from becoming too powerful and merciless. Thats why a Civilian must be in charge of a war. (while the generals and such can direct tactics, the civillian must ensure morality.) Of course, many then try to micromanage and then you get screw ups."

This is my exact point, we NEED kids to be politically active. Hell most protests are by uni students and then the general public follow. Look at the iraq war protests, they were started by uni students, unions and civil rights people. Now imagin we get rid of that POLITICALLY rebelious state in our kids and indoctrinate them in following authorities. You honestly still think parliment would act in a way that surports human rights if we dont push them? Do you think that inderpendents, and parties like the greens and democrats would have the same power to effect change if everyone blindly followed or do you think we would end up like germeny blindly following a ruthless leader?

I LIKE the fact that Australian's (unlike Americans) are willing to go up to our PM and tell him what we think. Politions are OUR servents not the other way around and i think introducing this sort of disipline COULD change that to a sociaty that blindly follows.

This is why i sugest comunity service rather than national service. Apart from the potentual to traumitise young australians (something i know about after going through PTSD after witnissing a MVA which is something i would NEVER inflict on my children) we want to build a COMUNITY spirit and a political awarness not a culture of blind obediance. I would have NO problem with people doing comunity service for councils of the emergency services, like the SES. That would be a brillant way to teach a leavel of comunity involvment and loyalty to your own comunity. This with citzanship MIGHT actually make people MORE politically aware and thats all to the good (i mean ignoring the apology speach how many people ever watch or lission to parliment, how many actually KNOW what the senate DOES). However anything that has the potentual to REDUCE this scrutiny should be disscouraged not surported

[Challenger78]

Ok forget the consitution and lets debate the point as if that wasnt an issue (hell no one in policy is going to read this anyway)

This is my exact point, we NEED kids to be politically active. Hell most protests are by uni students and then the general public follow. Look at the iraq war protests, they were started by uni students, unions and civil rights people. Now imagin we get rid of that POLITICALLY rebelious state in our kids and indoctrinate them in following authorities. You honestly still think parliment would act in a way that surports human rights if we dont push them? Do you think that inderpendents, and parties like the greens and democrats would have the same power to effect change if everyone blindly followed or do you think we would end up like germeny blindly following a ruthless leader?

I LIKE the fact that Australian's (unlike Americans) are willing to go up to our PM and tell him what we think. Politions are OUR servents not the other way around and i think introducing this sort of disipline COULD change that to a sociaty that blindly follows.

This is why i sugest comunity service rather than national service. Apart from the potentual to traumitise young australians (something i know about after going through PTSD after witnissing a MVA which is something i would NEVER inflict on my children) we want to build a COMUNITY spirit and a political awarness not a culture of blind obediance. I would have NO problem with people doing comunity service for councils of the emergency services, like the SES. That would be a brillant way to teach a leavel of comunity involvment and loyalty to your own comunity. This with citzanship MIGHT actually make people MORE politically aware and thats all to the good (i mean ignoring the apology speach how many people ever watch or lission to parliment, how many actually KNOW what the senate DOES). However anything that has the potentual to REDUCE this scrutiny should be disscouraged not surported

Bear in mind that NS is less than 2 years for most. It's not enough to introduce a whole new mindset. As we all know, That can take a lifetime.

[hypewaders]

K.FLINT: "Did you go to A school?"

CTI3, Submariner, USN 1983-1987

"were you trained for non combat service?"

No. Did you know that attack subs were rumored to go dangerous places?

"did your ASVAB results place you as a grunt?"

No, they got me yoinked out of my Airedale A-school, and offered something seemingly more exclusive.

"It seems that YOUR military service was not a good one"

I did alright- came out with a clean conscience and sanitary record.

"if all you came away with was "how to kill"...

Anyone who was permitted to serve in the military, but thinks it's not for killing was a severe ASVAB anomaly.

"you went in and came out with your eyes and mind shut."

My Navy experience opened my mind in several ways, but affronted it in others.

"it's nice to see that your limited view on things has led you to attack a person..."

Sorry, I was trained for it- but I was only aiming to hit your worldview.

"...rather then come up with a well thought out view of your own...I may not agree with what you say but I defend your right to say it with my life "

Roger that, but hang on to it for now- I'll PM you the suicide-pact when our mission is more imminent.

[Asguard]

in that case whats the point?
Your saying they cant be used in active service (this is not the experiance of israil just BTW, they throw there kids onto the front line) but it will teach disipline. Yet your saying that it cant change a mindset? Isnt that what DISPLINE is?

Oh and stockholm syndrom only takes hours at times to develop

[hypewaders]

Challenger78: "NS is less than 2 years for most. It's not enough to introduce a whole new mindset."

Signing some really scary legal paperwork can change your entire mindset in mere seconds (they say).

Joey, have you ever been to a Turkish prison?

You ever seen a grown man naked?

[Challenger78]

in that case whats the point?
Your saying they cant be used in active service (this is not the experiance of israil just BTW, they throw there kids onto the front line) but it will teach disipline. Yet your saying that it cant change a mindset? Isnt that what DISPLINE is?

Oh and stockholm syndrom only takes hours at times to develop

Discipline is not a mindset. It is a skill. It can be learned and forgotten. Same as a mindset, granted, but It's actually useful whereas a mindset is just a state of mind. I'm saying It's useful and that two years will not make you submissive to authority.

[lucifers angel]

for those of you who said, kids should be able to do has they wish!

should they be able to terriorise old people on street corners, should they be allowed to kill people who stand up to them, should they be allowed to go to parks and set fire to swing sets? should they be able to atatck other children? should they be able to mug you going to work? if you have put yes to anyone of these then your has bad has they are, national service until these kids are 21 (because has from this year you can't leave school until you are 18) will make them into decent people who you're not affraid of.

[lucifers angel]

Discipline is not a mindset. It is a skill. It can be learned and forgotten. Same as a mindset, granted, but It's actually useful whereas a mindset is just a state of mind. I'm saying It's useful and that two years will not make you submissive to authority.

sorry challanger i will have to disagree, if you disci[pline someone hard enough, (and no i am not saying caining every now and then) then you wont forget it, i was bought up in a very strict house and i dont break the law

[Asguard]

and i was brought up in a "libral" one and i dont break the law. Also we were given achole from a young age to get us used to it. Further more the last member of my family to serve in the millarty was my grandfather in WW2

The worst thing on my record is one disqualification of my licence because i forgot to pay the rego on my car and one D and D

I know this because i have had 2 police clearances in the last year, one for uni and one for st johns (had to get a new one for the CFS but i doubt anything will have changed)

How exactly would the millarty have made me a better person? Im training to serve the comunity, i am volenteering in a public service, i have had a partner for 5 years and i am so politically aware i actually lission to parliment on a daily basis. I was also a member of the scouts since i was 13 till i turned 20 so and i was a football umpire for a fair wack of time too

[Challenger78]

sorry challanger i will have to disagree, if you disci[pline someone hard enough, (and no i am not saying caining every now and then) then you wont forget it, i was bought up in a very strict house and i dont break the law

No, I meant self discipline, I wasn't thinking of physical Discipline.
Caning never did change my opinion on one thing.

[Bells]

for those of you who said, kids should be able to do has they wish!

should they be able to terriorise old people on street corners, should they be allowed to kill people who stand up to them, should they be allowed to go to parks and set fire to swing sets? should they be able to atatck other children? should they be able to mug you going to work? if you have put yes to anyone of these then your has bad has they are, national service until these kids are 21 (because has from this year you can't leave school until you are 18) will make them into decent people who you're not affraid of.

What makes you so sure that NS will change them so that they don't do that? How many reports have we read of soldiers raping and killing other people. Do you honestly think NS will somehow change a young person that they become docile law abiding citizens when their psychological make up could be a violent one?

Let me put it this way, would you really want someone who is capable or willing to mug an old woman learning how to use a firearm? Or learning hand to hand combat? Ya, that'd make me sleep well at night.