http://www.friesian.com/quiz.htm i found this site and it really open my eyes to what liberty is and what it means. so i thought i would link it here and have a dicussion on it.
i think most people when talking about liberty don't what the fuck they are saying. i just read it half an hour ago so i am still digesting it but it changed the way i think of liberty and i won't through the word around as lightly as i once did. i think it could help people understand their political beliefs better and to help them make better choices also i think i need to brush up my knowledge of what the constition really means
So where do you fall on the chart? I'm, as I've known for a while, squarely in the the libertarian corner.
The idea of the two dimensional chart is a good one, and has been done coherently by others. The people who did this one seem to have been trapped in the current confused vocabulary - and since that vocabulary has been confused through deliberate efforts by statist propaganda of the left (somewhat) and the right (predominantly), adopting it does serious damage to libertarian argument. This damage is furthered, oddly, by the shape of their little picture - it forces the assumption of a tradeoff between left/right considerations and up/down ones, with such results as finding Hitler and Stalin near each other, both centered on the left/right scale. They seem to recognize there is a problem, at first, saying this: But we note thay already deal in the confused stereotypes the statist propaganda creates, and reading on we find the confusion has been adopted along with the vocabulary, : By confusing "left/right" with "liberal/conservative", and then absorbing the changed meaning of "liberal", they have lost ability to distinguish left authoritarianism from right authoritarianism - and rendered left libertarianism apparently invisible to them. The picture should be a square, with every position on the left right scale having equal access to the up/down range. And Hitler should be at the maximum authoritarian position fairly far to the right, with Stalin at the maximum authoritarian position fairly far to the left. Then the word "liberal" should be dropped, and actual discussion about liberty can commence. Then they can use words like "Prussian" and mean something, instead of being seen as claiming that somebody like Kucinich is advocating a "Prussian paradigm".
Compartmentalizing arrays of pigeonholes into ever more complex matrices isn't a particularly stimulating exercise for me. Even without delving into further complexities, something always seemed completely backwards about the basic 2-d "Political Compass" fad, otherwise known as the Nolan Chart. The "Political Compass" is purported to self-orient through a series of qualifying questions, to then allow us to "find ourselves" on a matrix. The Political Compass may then, we are told, provide us each with useful comparisons of our own political label, sub-label, or sub-sub-label to those of others. We do happen to come equipped to intuitively find our political affinities in relation to others using long-evolved cognitive shortcuts. Rapid and reasonable accuracy is attainable in one instinctual step, using nothing more exotic than simple variations on herd-instinct. From glimpsing our places in relation to various herds, we soon discover (if we stop to actually observe) that issues continuously pull us all in various directions from where we think we graze, or walk, or sometimes stampede. It seems to me that things are both more simple and more dynamic than models like the Nolan and Ross models would have us believe. As iceaura already pointed out, extruding the Nolan model into 3 dimensions presents ridiculous contradictions. I just can't approach it seriously, because I am convinced that the outlooks of perceptive people are never fixed, but ever and always in motion, being part of the changing world we are all experiencing. Dr. Kelly Ross (in the OP reference) takes us on a seemingly purposeful drive-by, whizzing past fixed markers from Coolidge, Reagan, Will, Heinlein, Nolan, Nelson, Kant, Hobbes, and Madison. But I stepped off the ride without gaining much clarity from it. It's as if Ross was careening toward a Unified Political Theory, Political Compass in hand, but somehow he took me out into a wasteland of muddled overcategorization. Maybe I just need to sleep on it, and then read it through again. :sleep: But before I do, I just wanted to put down what had come to mind from the title of this thread- to post what I meant to post before I was diverted into 2-d Nolan and 3-d Ross modes of thinking: What does liberty mean? Well, in collective USAmerican thinking, it's gotten very fuzzy, and it's been losing a lot of respect in the old tug-of-war between liberty and security. In the past 7 years, liberty in the USA has entered an unprecedented tailspin because of our national misreaction to terrorism. Liberty means easy opportunities for all sorts of actions by all- including acts of terrorism. It logically follows that if we desire liberty, we must also desire to live with the ever-present potential for terrorism as liberty's surly but inseparable companion. The liberating thing about this relationship is, that although we can't trade liberty for security, we can discover that being terrified by terrorism -and being driven to irrationality by terrorism- are entirely optional responses. So if in the USA we are ever blessed with leadership, and a popular realization informing us of the reality that we can not be protected (and that "Homeland Security" is an insidious lie) it will be a profoundly liberating experience for all concerned, and avoid all sorts of dystopias that lurk in the dark corners of our political diagrams.
liberty....sorry....are you kidding??? i'm not rude....but who really doas believe in liberty, freedom and whatever human calls it....sorry.i have my own opinions. i do not believe in this w o r d s (anymore)
liberty is the american way to hide the truth the u.s..this country is planed from a long time ago to be and to end in the way how it is. america was planed from a circle of ?humans?, to grow they citizens in kapitalism and in slavery for work, for making material life, industry, etc etc. us citizen are in the glassbox of consuming material stuff and to be dependet on this. this is an emotional need what got feedet from this ?human?-people if u like gouvernment - (but u are wrong to believe that) no the gouvernment are the circle in charge, but specific circles. they plan was simple. to born a new world with individual dreams, advertised worldwide, know'n as the american dream. as a total consumer u will get blindet from the reallity. u need and need things. one day your life will be fixed just to get them and u will need money to buy them. so u must work, and work and work. one day your life is owned by the system of capitalism and you will get an total individual person, brainwashed that this all is good for you. You get brainwashed that this hat u r think ist good, than all the other mankind around te world hat to be in the same way. In the same moment you lost you individuallity and your fredom because you are dependet in a system slavery, where you never get out. the system needs you for they profit. and they wanna make profit whatever its cost. in the end u are a slave of the sys. its a big theme.. its need detail discusion.......but for now only one thing more: the system works of a basis of 12. they command everything and ill be sure that u dont know them, or dont wanna know them, but u are dependet from them.
onlinerotter1: "america was planed from a circle of ?humans?, to grow they citizens in kapitalism and in slavery for work..." As opposed to what other exemplary systems of government? Is the US system really that unique among contemporary states? "us citizen are in the glassbox of consuming material stuff and to be dependet on this. this is an emotional need what got feedet from this ?human?" Yes, if I understand you correctly, I can agree that we are all human. Do you consider the USA more or less human than other countries? Do you consider other nations immune from US mistakes and excesses? "the american dream. as a total consumer u will get blindet from the reallity. u need and need things. one day your life will be fixed just to get them and u will need money to buy them. so u must work, and work and work. one day your life is owned by the system of capitalism and you will get an total individual person, brainwashed that this all is good for you." What is stopping me, a USAmerican, from working smarter, and achieving greater independence and financial reward? I seriously doubt that I am more brainwashed than you. "In the same moment you lost you individuallity and your fredom because you are dependet in a system slavery, where you never get out." I don't feel trapped- not in terms of work, or travel, or thought. "in the end u are a slave of the sys. its a big theme.. its need detail discusion..." Fine. Let's dig into your premise that this is a particularly "American" phenomenon. I am personally at odds with US foreign policy at present, but that doesn't mean that I think that our system is inferior to any number of other political systems. Good systems can suffer from neglect and entropy, and neglected, entropic systems can be smartened up. "the system works of a basis of 12. they command everything and ill be sure that u dont know them, or dont wanna know them, but u are dependet from them." Please define "Them" as you intend the word to mean here.
ok let me try to anser u: the us system is based of a plan of the twelve. (I dont nw if you are know about this..). the system was based of the plan to fix a country wich is giving to the real commanders this, what they need to realist they plans. one of this things are the making of the globalism. the gouvernment is just a ping ball who is doing what they are command. like an theatre with marionettes. this has nothing to do with the consider of the us. they are human as everybody else of this globe. but they in most brainwashed of the system and they do not realist was is the real and what not. they see only what they gotten ordert to see and in the way "they" want them to see it. o ham (smile) u as an american.......dont feel bad, but u are not smarter. ( only the arc greeks are smarter )......whatever u got and whatever you have you got it from the arc people of europe and most of the greeks. and nothing else. there is nothing bad about it, but thats the way of reallity..... "In the same moment you lost you individuallity and your fredom because you are dependet in a system slavery, where you never get out." I don't feel trapped- not in terms of work, or travel, or thought. possible u see it in the way u like to see it. but dit u ever ask somone whois not an american? i believe that the world in the opinion they live, they will never get the top system, because verybody is different. this what people can do is only to show up behind scenes and to reginised that the us is never fighting for the peoples good, but only for they pockets. u as an (maybe) small family worker has no right to change it. "the system works of a basis of 12. they command everything and ill be sure that u dont know them, or dont wanna know them, but u are dependet from them." Please define "Them" as you intend the word to mean here. i dont understand your writing. pls explain thank u
onlinerotter1: "the us system is based of a plan of the twelve." Who are, or were "The Twelve"? "...the making of the globalism..." Surely you don't dispute that national and regional economies are integrating on a global scale, independently from political systems and ideologies. Human history has been a long, accelerating progression of "globalization" of trade and economies. The USA did not set this in motion, and there are other forces (China, the EU, India for example) completing their own globalization objectives. "...[Americans are] in most brainwashed of the system and they do not realist was is the real and what not. they see only what they gotten ordert to see and in the way "they" want them to see it." I agree with you that we in the USA are suffering under dangerous illusions. But I disagree, if I am understanding you correctly, with your idea that it's something about our Constitutional system. I suspect we're just, fat, dumb, and increasingly unhappy sore-losers- We inherited a wonderful political system, but we're neglecting it. I don't feel trapped- not in terms of work, or travel, or thought. "possible u see it in the way u like to see it." I'm making career changes now; I'm confident about learning, earning and going more places. I believe that we become what we mostly think about becoming, and I know that being a US citizen, I still enjoy vastly more opportunities than most people do. "but dit u ever ask somone whois not an american?" Yes- I grew up outside of the USA, and I keep in touch with the "outside". "the us is never fighting for the peoples good, but only for they pockets. u as an (maybe) small family worker has no right to change it." When enough USAmericans decide to change US policy, we can and we do change it- for the good of any or all people we may choose to benefit. "u are dependet from them... system of 12... plan of 12" Please define "Them" as you intend the word to mean here. "i dont understand your writing. pls explain" When you mention a "12" and "them" that I am dependent from as an American, I don't know who you mean by that- Do you mean 12 specific people, with names? Who are they?
Hypewaders mentioned Political Compass - their little picture is less misleading, and their analysis less confused by the stereotypes of statist propaganda. http://www.politicalcompass.org/ This might make a decent start: http://www.politicalcompass.org/iconochasms
look i will try to explain. "12" (twelve). there are 12 families. for now i do not like to give a detail descrption without gitting (maeby) in trouble...., but this 12 families are splitted in commercial areas. banksystems, ground's, power and energy enterprises, military equip., factories (all kinds), shipping and transport's, and and and and......this are the twelve who cammand all countries and states inside and outside the u.s.. its seems that the u.s. commands everything, but thats something like dust in the eyes of humans, the command's are comeing from a island in northern europe and there are the headquater of the twelve. The u.s. was constructed of a plan. the result is that none likes the u.s. ( i mean the people ouside from the u.s.) perhaps in my country (like in many other countries i searched of...) dont like that much the americans, they system, the arrogance and they naivismus. but the biggest problem is that the own americans doesnt see anymore the real picture, but only the missery in what they are living. possible they thing they live great and very good, but i believe that most of the people are living under a strategic planed stress. they live like robots and not anymore like real humans. look the middleclass and under of america. but also in most of the other countrys. i ts kinda the same. i see them when they coming here for vacation. sometimes i thing they are from out of space.......im sorry but its only my personal opinion.......being dependet of a commercial system without any outdoor is not having any freedom and its no liberty.
Thanks for the explanation, onlinerotter1. Athough I still don't quite understand the "12 Families" part, what you describe is a lot like what our President Eisenhower warned USAmericans about in his farewell address. You've also described something of what Naomi Klein calls the Shock Doctrine, which I also agree is in play in US politics and the creeping subversion of democracy by corporatism. "12 Families" does have a certain poetic full-circle aspect- Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Are you suggesting that democracy has only been a temporary remission or camouflage of dynasties? I'm not convinced of that- there is real evidence of human sociopolitical evolution beyond that state, blueprinted in documents like the US Constitution, and expressed in the relationship that the citizenry builds and maintains together. In the USA, where our relationship to our Constitution, to our democratic ideals, to each other, and to the world are being popularly neglected, we're increasingly losing our way. Most USAmericans I talk with do not share a level of political awareness as nuanced as many who lived centuries ago (for example, Thomas Paine). When it comes to matters of Liberty and Reason, there are many voices from the past, and there have been revolutionary times when people were more engaged than we see in mainstream USAmerican opinion today. In our everyday conversations, our media, and even our political process, it's as if we're not getting smarter with time and experience. As a result, our liberties are now slipping quietly away, as USAmerican apathy yields a little more, and then a little more, to protofascist corporatism and militarism. Maybe you would call it a yielding back to your mysterious "12". We've been warned about these kinds of dangers all through our history, but the warnings are being ignored, and even resented by most USAmericans. You seem to be suggesting a return to a dozen or so dynasties- Maybe you're even suggesting that we have always been under the concealed power of specific dynasties. I believe that humanity has discovered how to slip the surly bonds of tyranny, and I know that we've taken dynasties completely apart at times. But we've never been able to dismantle apathy, which seems to spontaneously return in eras of great national successes and luxury. In a cycle that I believe could be broken if we had the will, intellectually lazy societies succumb to the most ancient societal pathogens, generally involving the uncontrolled concentration of wealth and power into the hands of a few. I'm saddened that a majority of my USAmerican compatriots have never bothered to learn our own history well, and don't really care- because I'm sure that the answer is in that kind of awareness. Navigating requires keeping track of where we've been. Sometimes, in times of bitterness and despair about our tragic collective mindlessness, I feel as if affluent nations who don't respect the gift of liberty and opportunity- who let it slip away in small increments, get what they deserve whan it all comes down. Often, I'm angry that something with such beautiful potential, such a precious gift from generations before, that we could nurture and enhance into something even better, can be ignorantly neglected and mismanaged into ruin. It doesn't have to be that way, if more of us would only have enough respect for liberty to pay attention.
Unfortunately, the intelligentsia figured out a long time ago that most of humanity doesn't have a clue, and actually wants to be led around. Individuals get to write the history that the rest are supposed to believe in. Fortunately, some individuals are also revisionists. But we aren't going to reform the basic premise that "leading" is (also) the path to status, wealth and control (to maintain the wealth and status). Democracy is like being allowed to choose someone (not the local chippie), to sit on the throne. From which they then go about trying to arrange a stay on the bloody thing.
"12 Families" does have a certain poetic full-circle aspect- Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. Are you suggesting that democracy has only been a temporary remission or camouflage of dynasties? I'm not convinced of that- there is real evidence of human sociopolitical evolution beyond that state, blueprinted in documents like the US Constitution, and expressed in the relationship that the citizenry builds and maintains together. .....i believe that any country of the world is working of the same basis. i mean every zivil. & western country ( europe, u.s., australia etc....) the constitutions are almost everywhere the same. they are based of a individual chapter. the people ( the little citicens), or ......most of them thinks to understand the meaning of the constitutions and what the paragrarhs are telling. most of them sadly are wrong....just one example. the word "free". Yes. everybody is FREE to....., but only until the Law.....people are minimized without knowing it. most people either know what means "democratic". .....and they think this is being living in freedom and being free.....its wrong. democracy is not being free, but dependet from a system. and this system is made to slve people in a psycho way...being a slave for them without knowing it....its kinda funny but it is a serios matter wich scarres me alot.
im sorry i am smiling alot about u caomant, beacause i really love it. i mean i love it very much when people start traing they minds really in a way to care about reallity.... this is one plus for you ( from me Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!....the tvelvw (12) im a little (in a smily way) confused that many peole here in this chapter ask me the same question and i dont get it... i mean do they really doasnt know who are they 12 and what are they representing? its sad to see how much people know about real history and not (about history wich we getting from school) because not all history we get selled its has to be the real stuff. sometimes the powers doasnt like us to know about the real stuff. the 12......hm....families...one race...from east.....very clever smart and highly inteligent....economic, strategic, politic, religion, science, big business, banks, stockmarket, etc etc etc. hollywood perhaps ia a good example for worldwide brainwashing factory....or if u want influencing peoplesmind and character. make research whois hollywood? whois owner of the big moviefactories, who are populars, watch they names....write them down and than figure out that all they has one commun...when i did it i got scarred... because they all from the same families. the 12.....sorry i cant write down all i know because.......
dont get me wrong....the american phenomen is something else. i dont blame american people.. god beware.. i do not either try doing that. americans are just humans.(for me). but they got fixed for this system, to favered it. but americans thinks they are something special and higher as any other country of they world. hm. they are not either americans, but europeans, indys, easterns etc. real americans are something different. but this is a differnt suject to talk about. it is a shame just to live baesed on a illusion and a lie, because when u weck up that u feel just like a truck ramms u on the had
