Islam and Terrorism

[spidergoat]

Do not pretend that there is no violence within Christianity.

There is justification in the Koran for violence if it is a defense or Holy War.
However, that's simply the point. bin Laden and the extremists may believe they are "defending", and therefore justified, but they quite clearly are the attackers. Secondly, the FACT that PROVES beyond a doubt that it is not Islam to blame, but rather misinterpretation, is that out of the 1.2 billion Muslims, only some of them participate in or support the terrorism. So long as there is a single Muslim that doesn't, then it proves that the religion itself isn't to blame.

Nonsense. There is no interpretation allowed in Islam. Even SAM believes that there is a religious war against Muslims by the west. Promoting secularism and Democracy is enough to be going against Islam. So-called moderate Muslims are just too pragmatic or illiterate to care about the details of what they are commanded to do.

[hypewaders]

spidergoat: "There is no interpretation allowed in Islam."

That's like proclaiming there's no breathing allowed in Islam. Human beings interpret all that we encounter. We can't stop interpreting our perceptions any more than we can stop thinking or breaathing. Muslims I've known have surely been no less human, no less curious, or creative than believers in any other religion that I've encountered.

"Promoting secularism and Democracy is enough to be going against Islam."

No, that is not true- Not for the millions of Muslim believers who are right now living fulfilling secular lives, and who enthusiastically participate in democracy. You have me wondering about your awareness of how most Muslims live. Are you projecting your impressions of a particular sect on an entire religion? Just as most Christians don't live or think like Quakers, most Muslims don't live and think like Sufis.

"So-called moderate Muslims are just too pragmatic or illiterate to care about the details of what they are commanded to do."

If I'm understanding what you have posted, you are offering an oblique suggestion that Muslims are brainwashed into a lower level free thinking than yourself. Or conversely, that non-Muslims enjoy a freedom from cultural and social suggestion that Muslims are denied because of their beliefs- Which is a complete load of crap. If this is what you really think, then you really should get to know a wider variety of Muslims personally.

[spidergoat]

That's just like proclaiming that there's no breathing allowed in Islam. Human beings interpret all that we encounter, and Muslims I've known have been no less human, or curious, or creative than believers in any other interpretations of the supernatural.

I know it seems counter to human nature, but it's the truth. The Quoran is considered the involute word of God. Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then.

"Promoting secularism and Democracy is enough to be going against Islam."

No, not for the millions of Muslim believers who are right now living fulfilling secular lives, and who enthusiastically participate in democracy. You have me wondering about your awareness of how most Muslims live. Are you projecting your impressions of a particular sect on an entire religion? Surely you know that most Christians don't live like Quakers.

Muslims do not live "secular lives". I know there is Democracy among Muslims, but the Quoran demands sharia law. Promoting western values is inherently against Islam. The ones that don't care just don't care, but the potential remains, if someone wants to understand Islam, they will realize what Osama realized.

"So-called moderate Muslims are just too pragmatic or illiterate to care about the details of what they are commanded to do."

If I'm understanding what you have posted, you are offering an oblique suggestion that Muslims are brainwashed into a lower level free thinking than yourself; that non-Muslims enoy a freedom from cultural and social suggestion that Muslims are denied because of their beliefs- Which is a complete load of crap. If this is what you really think, then you really should get to know a wider variety of Muslims personally.

Quite so, Muslims, if they really believe what they say (and most do not), are not allowed the freedom of thought that I am. Most Muslims treat the Quoran as a magical object, they say the verses by rote, not realizing what they mean, often performing rituals that are contradicted by the very verses they are reading!

[pjdude1219]

I know it seems counter to human nature, but it's the truth. The Quoran is considered the involute word of God. Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then.





Muslims do not live "secular lives". I know there is Democracy among Muslims, but the Quoran demands sharia law. Promoting western values is inherently against Islam. The ones that don't care just don't care, but the potential remains, if someone wants to understand Islam, they will realize what Osama realized.




Quite so, Muslims, if they really believe what they say (and most do not), are not allowed the freedom of thought that I am. Most Muslims treat the Quoran as a magical object, they say the verses by rote, not realizing what they mean, often performing rituals that are contradicted by the very verses they are reading!

that is simplely the most offensive thing i have ever heard said about muslims on this forum. you are a moderator ACT LIKE IT

[Norsefire]

Nonsense. There is no interpretation allowed in Islam. Even SAM believes that there is a religious war against Muslims by the west. Promoting secularism and Democracy is enough to be going against Islam. So-called moderate Muslims are just too pragmatic or illiterate to care about the details of what they are commanded to do.

Not really. There's secularism in Syria.
There's democracy in Lebanon.
So don't tell me that it cannot be done.

Secondly, why is it interpretation? Simple. As I said, the only justified violence is defense or Holy War. Would it not be up to the individual for what they consider to be defense or a Holy enough cause to go to war?

Are you also saying that all Muslims are extremists? Remember, Christianity was very extremist during the Crusades. The relevance of that fact is simply that, for the most part, it has changed and if it can, Islam can as well.

[spidergoat]

It's not "politically correct", but it needs to be said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim

[hypewaders]

spidergoat: "The Quoran is considered the involute word of God."

The Bible gets the same billing in much of Christianity.

"Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then."

You're at least 1,000 years behind in your history.

"Muslims do not live "secular lives"."

I never realized what a blind spot you suffer from until now. That's a completely ignorant thing to say.

"I know there is Democracy among Muslims, but the Quoran demands sharia law."

According to various interpretations, yes.

"Promoting western values is inherently against Islam."

Look, just because there's a culture war in progress does not mean everyone's signed on.

"if someone wants to understand Islam, they will realize what Osama realized."

What the fuck do you mean by that?

"Muslims, if they really believe what they say (and most do not), are not allowed the freedom of thought that I am."

Thoughts are free.

"Most Muslims treat the Quoran as a magical object, they say the verses by rote, not realizing what they mean, often performing rituals that are contradicted by the very verses they are reading!"

You're here repeating bullshit by rote, and displaying a deplorable ignorance about more than a quarter of humanity.

[hypewaders]

:self-moderation hat: 3-day ignore for spidergoat

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Sorry spidergoat is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.

Wanna bet?

[spidergoat]

Are you also saying that all Muslims are extremists? Remember, Christianity was very extremist during the Crusades. The relevance of that fact is simply that, for the most part, it has changed and if it can, Islam can as well.

In practice, no, obviously not all Muslims are extremists. But Islam does not permit change in the manner of the Protestants. This is what I learned from a former Muslim.

There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism: at most there is a difference of degree but not of kind. All the tenets of Islamic fundamentalism are derived from the Qur'an, the Sunna, and the Hadith – Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian construct derived by Muslim jurists from the fundamental and defining texts of Islam. The fundamentalists, with greater logic and coherence than so- called moderate or liberal Muslims, have made Islam the basis of a radical utopian ideology that aims to replace capitalism and democracy as the reigning world system. Islamism accounts for the anti-American hatred to be found in places far from the Arab-Israeli conflict, like Nigeria and Afghanistan, demonstrating that the Middle East conflict cannot legitimately be used to explain this phenomenon called Islamism.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/not_muslim.htm

:self-moderation hat: 3-day ignore for spidergoat

vBulletin Message


Wanna bet?

Just put your fingers in your ears and go la, la, la, la...

[Norsefire]

In practice, no, obviously not all Muslims are extremists. But Islam does not permit change in the manner of the Protestants. This is what I learned from a former Muslim.

Islam, the religion, may lay out rules but I know of no rule which goes against change.
A second fact which, like the one which I talked about a single Muslim and whatever, is the simple fact that there was an Islamic Golden Age, where many advances in astronomy, mathematics, medicine, culture, civilization, etc were made.......and there was, for the most part, peace.

My point is that Muslims, not Islam, are ultimately up to what they do.

Remember, defending yourself or committing Holy War might be the justification, but it's up to the individual as to what defense is.

That's why most Moslems are against bin Laden, but his groupees are strong supporters. It's a simple case of interpretation.

[spidergoat]

I don't deny the achievements of the Muslims. I don't think they are evil, I wish them nothing but peace and prosperity, but their religion is problematic, more so than most in my opinion.

[Norsefire]

I don't deny the achievements of the Muslims. I don't think they are evil, I wish them nothing but peace and prosperity, but their religion is problematic, more so than most in my opinion.

At least we're now beginning to understand each other. How so is it problematic? Are you an atheist?

[pjdude1219]

I don't deny the achievements of the Muslims. I don't think they are evil, I wish them nothing but peace and prosperity, but their religion is problematic, more so than most in my opinion.

thats crap you posted a link to support your bigoted comment that said islamic countries would not have made any cultural achievements without outside influences

[S.A.M.]

Nonsense. There is no interpretation allowed in Islam. Even SAM believes that there is a religious war against Muslims by the west.

Not really, its a talking point of refutation against those who believe that Islam has a war against the West. My point is, you could say the same thing from the other side.

Promoting secularism and Democracy is enough to be going against Islam. So-called moderate Muslims are just too pragmatic or illiterate to care about the details of what they are commanded to do.

Completely untrue.

In fact, the more you study the religion, the more moderate you become.

Which is probably why you don't see many Islamic scholars commenting on politics , they are usually far away from it.

An imam is not a religious scholar, something which many people cannot fathom.

[spidergoat]

At least we're now beginning to understand each other. How so is it problematic? Are you an atheist?

Yes, but I don't think it's problematic simply for it's supernaturalism. How many Muslims study a Quoran in a scholarly way and not by rote? How many know there is more than one version?

[Mind Sifter]

I know it seems counter to human nature, but it's the truth. The Quoran is considered the involute word of God. Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then.

maybe you were referring to the closure of the door of ijtihad? it never really happen anyway. there were always current problems in islam that have to be dealt with and that require interpretation.

: Ijtihad (Arabic اجتهاد) is a technical term of Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The opposite of ijtihad is taqlid, Arabic for "imitation". A person who applies ijtihad is called a mujtahid, and traditionally had to be a scholar of Islamic law, an Islamic lawyer or alim...

...It is debated whether Al-Ghazali was observing or creating the so-called "closure of the door of ijtihad". Some say this had occurred by the beginning of the 10th century CE, a couple of centuries after the finalizing of the major collections of hadith...

...Muslims living in the West are subject to secular laws of the state rather than Islamic law. In this context ijtihad becomes mainly a theoretical and ideological exercise without any legal force...

...Conservative Muslims say that most Muslims do not have the training in legal sources to conduct ijtihad. They argue that this role was traditionally given to those who have studied for a number of years under a scholar. However, liberal movements within Islam generally argue that any Muslim can perform ijtihad, given that Islam has no generally accepted clerical hierarchy or bureaucratic organization...

[Kadark]

I know it seems counter to human nature, but it's the truth. The Quoran is considered the involute word of God. Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then.

Did you choose 1,000 AD because it's a nice, round number? I'm beginning to think your tirade lacks credibility.

Mind Sifter: Ijtihad is a joke. The word has been hijacked by highly liberal "Muslims" who have used their "independent interpretations" of religious scriptures to validate their pro-Western lifestyle. It's for the "Muslims" who are torn between their faith and their upbringing; their religion and their culture. They cannot relinquish either side completely, so they grab on to both. Indecisive fools.

[Arsalan]

I know it seems counter to human nature, but it's the truth. The Quoran is considered the involute word of God. Any interpretation of it was finished by 1000AD, and no more has been allowed since then.

Strange, i must have dreamed about the part of the mujaddids then

Muslims do not live "secular lives". I know there is Democracy among Muslims, but the Quoran demands sharia law.

The Quran says to take votes and to rule with consultation fo your subjects

Quite so, Muslims, if they really believe what they say (and most do not), are not allowed the freedom of thought that I am. Most Muslims treat the Quoran as a magical object, they say the verses by rote, not realizing what they mean, often performing rituals that are contradicted by the very verses they are reading!

Dude, your ginorance is overflowing here. Islam and the Quran literally "enshrined" freedom of conscience and thought. But your one of those judging Islam by the actions of some people who dont even know their own religion and live in places which have been bombed to hell by other superpowers. No surprise there

[Mind Sifter]

Mind Sifter: Ijtihad is a joke. The word has been hijacked by highly liberal "Muslims" who have used their "independent interpretations" of religious scriptures to validate their pro-Western lifestyle. It's for the "Muslims" who are torn between their faith and their upbringing; their religion and their culture. They cannot relinquish either side completely, so they grab on to both. Indecisive fools.

nope. ijtihad is not a joke. trying to validate unislamic values by hijacking the word ijtihad is. one can be a muslim while preserving good values of their culture. islam doesn't go against this, islam doesn't go against humanity and intellectual thinking.

[Kadark]

nope. ijtihad is not a joke. trying to validate unislamic values by hijacking the word ijtihad is. one can be a muslim while preserving good values of their culture. islam doesn't go against this, islam doesn't go against humanity and intellectual thinking.

Unfortunately, this is the only part of ijtihad I've witnessed from others. Of course Islam is not against ijtihad, but the idea of independent thinking is truly laughable when one doesn't have the knowledge to formulate a viable opinion.

Note: I am not talking directly to you, Mind Sifter. Just a general comment.