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Thread: Islam and Terrorism

  1. #321
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Actually, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that the 1/4 of humanity that is Muslim promotes terrorism. Or at least no one serious is arguing that, and I think the question is fallacious from the outset.
    I think Islam provides ample justification for all kinds of violence, especially political violence. The fact that most Muslims do not commit terrorism is testament to the violence of their Muslim leaders, who prefer to control it and channel it towards specific goals. Widespread personal violence (unless it's against women) would be a threat to their hegemony. I would also add that Islam promotes slavery, apartheid, and corruption in government. For evidence of this, just look at the oil rich Middle Eastern states, who outsource their labor to a sub-class of menial workers who have no rights and are kept separate from the citizens. Technically, we can't say that the government of, for instance, Saudi Arabia, is corrupt, since that level of corruption isn't considered corruption, because it's totally legal to give money away to whomever they wish.

  2. #322
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
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    Hear, hear.

  3. #323
    Truth can only be half said Café Cappuccino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Arguably, an enlightened society would view symbolic expressions of faith as inconsequential.
    Not unless these evoke behaviors that damage the community at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    And here we have the mythic misunderstanding constructed by the Western worldview.
    Their mythic quality remains to be demonstrated. Please feel at ease to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    Does wearing a cross on a chain constitute "rational freedom"?
    Depending on the context, it is an empirical question, that is, it depends of the consequences. If the wearing of the cross on a chain "evoke[s] behaviors that damage the community at large", as I typed above, well then, it should be discouraged.

    Quote Originally Posted by StrawDog View Post
    This is an interesting point. To the extent that Western society and its love of excess baulks at Sharia law, yet does not bat an eyelid at the likes of Gitmo, this notion is telling.
    You must be talking about the "western society" of another planet. On the one I live, if the "batting of an eyelid" were to make wind, it would ceratainly raised hurricanes.

    "Western society" didn't create and defend it, but a madman by the name of G.W.Bush. The rest of the world was appalled.

  4. #324
    Truth can only be half said Café Cappuccino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Café Cappuccino View Post
    "Western society" didn't create and defend it, but a madman by the name of G.W.Bush. The rest of the world was appalled.
    Futhermore, if the US had the kind of government system typical of the countries that implement Sharia Law, there would have not been the electoral power alternation that allowed Barack Obama come to power and do what is in his capacity to shut down the illegal operations therein. We can only hope the electorate and their representatives will make other decisions that will further better the situations the country and the world live in (as affected by the US). We can embrace hope, due to the operation of that system.

  5. #325
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Café Cappuccino View Post
    "Western society" didn't create and defend it, but a madman by the name of G.W.Bush. The rest of the world was appalled.
    Because he broke an unspoken rule. We always did torture, kill, and start wars for resources, everyone does it, but we aren't allowed to admit it publically. Every conservative and liberal that drives a car is responsible for invading Iraq. Even if we didn't, we are killing the planet by our lifestyle, what's the difference?

  6. #326
    Truth can only be half said Café Cappuccino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Because he broke an unspoken rule. We always did torture, kill, and start wars for resources, everyone does it, but we aren't allowed to admit it publically. Every conservative and liberal that drives a car is responsible for invading Iraq. Even if we didn't, we are killing the planet by our lifestyle, what's the difference?
    Opposition.

    The West has waged a long battle between the cruel religionist forces −which support religious conformity- and liberalism −which supports égalitarianism.

    Islamism has its Western counterpart, surely. And surely put to rest, although, from time to time and in diverse forms it shows its ugly head.

    The solution was at first the establishment of "the rights of man" (les droits de l'homme, and equivalents such as the American bill of rights) and disestablishment; the second secularité/laïcité of the French and Belgian kinds, for instance. This last one seems to me best. Of course, it works IMO because the population has had a long learning history of almost four hundred years towards that direction.

  7. #327
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    I think Islam provides ample justification for all kinds of violence, especially political violence. .
    Not as much as American policy. Even a cursory look at the violence of the last 100 years, by a government that is elected by the people and with an army that is entirely volunteer [something which you cannot say, for example about the Chinese] pales every other ideology into insignificance, including the dubious priviliege of using nuclear weapons against a civilian population

    http://killinghope.org/

    And thats just the military interventions... there are still the economic interventions which have converted entire Third World countries into unstable hell holes while destroying the livelihoods of millions of people.

    http://www.globalissues.org/

    In fact, even now, all the Middle Eastern dictators are American allies receiving money and arms and indeed support for oppressing their populace.

    And currently, it is the Americans who lead the world in torture, wars of choice and indiscriminate killing of unfortunate peoples with unpopular politics and ideologies. Since before the cold war.

  8. #328
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Café Cappuccino View Post
    Opposition.

    The West has waged a long battle between the cruel religionist forces −which support religious conformity- and liberalism −which supports égalitarianism.

    Islamism has its Western counterpart, surely. And surely put to rest, although, from time to time and in diverse forms it shows its ugly head.

    The solution was at first the establishment of "the rights of man" (les droits de l'homme, and equivalents such as the American bill of rights) and disestablishment; the second secularity of the French and Belgian kinds for instance. This last one seems to me best. Of course, it works IMO because the population has had a long learning history of almost four hundred years towards that direction.
    Where it gets tricky is the difference between group rights and individual rights. Can a group like Muslims have liberty too, or is that only for individuals? In order for a Muslim to even know what they are missing, you have to pull them out of their culture, so that they can make an individual choice. But that very act is an act of destruction, since controlling individual behavior is an integral aspect of their culture (and many others).

  9. #329
    (catching up on the thread here)

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Actually, I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that the 1/4 of humanity that is Muslim promotes terrorism. Or at least no one serious is arguing that...
    When this thread began, that was the precise insinuation intended: That there is a flaw in the Islamic faith that is causing terrorism to occur; that Muslims are more likely to be terrorists than followers of other traditions. I confront this insinuation often, here and elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    ...and I think the question is fallacious from the outset.
    I think that the association of Islam with terrorism is fallacious, and even malicious. But I think that the question is important, because this fallacy corrupts many discussions here.

  10. #330
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypewaders View Post
    (...That there is a flaw in the Islamic faith that is causing terrorism to occur....
    But it's not a flaw, it's the exact reason Islam is so widespread.

  11. #331
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Not as much as American policy. Even a cursory look at the violence of the last 100 years, by a government that is elected by the people and with an army that is entirely volunteer [something which you cannot say, for example about the Chinese] pales every other ideology into insignificance, including the dubious priviliege of using nuclear weapons against a civilian population....
    That's largely due to our mastery of technology and weapons. But get rid of all that and we would still have to deal with the horrible consequences of Islamic political violence and oppression.

    The really scary thing is when the Islamists get their hands on the same weapons. It will happen, and it will be apocalyptic.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    I think Islam provides ample justification for all kinds of violence, especially political violence.
    Then I hope you won't mind clearly substantiating you viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    The fact that most Muslims do not commit terrorism is testament to the violence of their Muslim leaders, who prefer to control it and channel it towards specific goals.
    Why is it not a testament to their faith, in the face of so much political manipulation of Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Widespread personal violence (unless it's against women) would be a threat to their hegemony.
    This is a similar example of drawing conclusions about Islam that may actually involve cultural and political issues that predate it. The "Western" world is only just emerging from patriarchy and misogynism. There are Muslim feminists today who find firm footing in the teachings of Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    I would also add that Islam promotes slavery, apartheid, and corruption in government. For evidence of this, just look at the oil rich Middle Eastern states, who outsource their labor to a sub-class of menial workers who have no rights and are kept separate from the citizens.
    Although oil production has peaked in the Middle East, the region was a magnet for workers, because opportunities have been great there, even for unskilled laborers. As with most rapidly-developing economies (consider the American frontier, early agribusiness of the southern states, exploitation of immigrant and migrant workers, etc) there is also opportunity for greedy and ruthless people to do their worst. But to conflate greed, exploitation, slavery, and the like as particulary Islamic is inaccurate. To conflate these sort of injustices with Islam is as disingenuous as conflating Islamic faith with a propensity or disposition for terrorism. Most Muslims are certainly not slave-masters or exploitative people.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Technically, we can't say that the government of, for instance, Saudi Arabia, is corrupt, since that level of corruption isn't considered corruption, because it's totally legal to give money away to whomever they wish.
    Nonsense. It is not the subject of this thread, but the Saudi ruling family and class are deeply and routinely corrupt- that doesn't mean that Islam made them that way. And it is not legal in Saudi Arabia, nor is it condoned in the broad mainstream of Islamic theology to support terrorism.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffP View Post
    Hear, hear.
    If you are going continue to applaud spidergoat, then prepare to also defend his thesis.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    But it's not a flaw [that Islam causes terrorism] it's the exact reason Islam is so widespread.
    Nonsense. Islam has not spread through terrorist coercion.

  13. #333
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    Then I hope you won't mind clearly substantiating you viewpoint.
    The existence of Islamic terrorist organizations, including Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Quida, the Taliban, the Revolutionary Guard, all prove my point. When Islam is in charge, terrorism prospers.


    Why is it not a testament to their faith, in the face of so much political manipulation of Islam?
    Because their willingness to commit violence in the name of Islam is reflected in their violence against women, their barbaric punishments for minor crimes. It's just a matter of degree and scale. Their faith is full of violent and supremecist messages.


    This is a similar example of drawing conclusions about Islam that may actually involve cultural and political issues that predate it. The "Western" world is only just emerging from patriarchy and misogynism. There are Muslim feminists today who find firm footing in the teachings of Islam.
    A testament to the internal contradictions of the Quran. Islam does codify and institutionalize patriarchy, so there is no Islam without it. Muslim feminists are like anti-Zionist Jews.


    Although oil production has peaked in the Middle East, the region was a magnet for workers, because opportunities have been great there, even for unskilled laborers. As with most rapidly-developing economies (consider the American frontier, early agribusiness of the southern states, exploitation of immigrant and migrant workers, etc) there is also opportunity for greedy and ruthless people to do their worst. But to conflate greed, exploitation, slavery, and the like as particulary Islamic is inaccurate. To conflate these sort of injustices with Islam is as disingenuous as conflating Islamic faith with a propensity or disposition for terrorism. Most Muslims are certainly not slave-masters or exploitative people.
    Islam does indeed make a distinction between the world of Islam and the Other. It's the same as American racists saying slavery was justified because blacks weren't really people. Most Muslims are dis-empowered by Muslim leaders. Saudi Arabia directly promotes terrorism by their funding of Madrasses.



    Nonsense. It is not the subject of this thread, but the Saudi ruling family and class are deeply and routinely corrupt- that doesn't mean that Islam made them that way. And it is not legal in Saudi Arabia, nor is it condoned in the broad mainstream of Islamic theology to support terrorism.
    They are legally entitled to spend the countries money as they wish. It's only a western perspective that would call that corrupt, but it's designed to be that way institutionally.


    Nonsense. Islam has not spread through terrorist coercion.
    It was spread by the sword, among other things.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    The existence of Islamic terrorist organizations, including Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Quida, the Taliban, the Revolutionary Guard, all prove my point. When Islam is in charge, terrorism prospers.
    -But those organizations are not strictly terrorist (we can explore this here); nor are they in control of the Muslim world; nor are they the recognized theological authorities of mainstream Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Because their willingness to commit violence in the name of Islam is reflected in their violence against women, their barbaric punishments for minor crimes.
    You are conflating a minority of Muslims (those who hurt women or are barbaric) with all the rest. Islam has spread in many regions where rough tribal justice has been the norm. Where Islam was first revealed, it was in the context of much crueler societies. In many places where Islam now predominates, there remains a struggle for tolerance and justice. Intolerance and injustice are not Islam's intent in theology or mainstream practice.

    God has not revealed anything to man as an automatic magic cure for sin and injustice- no religion sweeps away all iniquity in its path. It is not a fair comparison to say that Islam promotes justice less than Christianity, for example. When Christianity became a world religion, the Dark Ages soon followed.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    It's just a matter of degree and scale.
    Then it should be easy to quantify the disparity in deaths at Muslim hands, as compared to human deaths at the hands of non-muslims. The last time I checked the War on Terrorism tally it was obvious (even though Muslim deaths are not counted as carefully) that non-Muslims are way ahead in kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Their faith is full of violent and supremecist messages.
    Then it should be easy for you to quote such messages from the Muslim mainstream in context. Let's see what you've got.



    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    [Violent and supremacist messages are a] testament to the internal contradictions of the Quran. Islam does codify and institutionalize patriarchy, so there is no Islam without it. Muslim feminists are like anti-Zionist Jews.
    Muslim feminists are muslims. Anti-Zionist Jews are Jews. Muslim progressives are Muslims. Muslim civil-rights activists are Muslims. You can't eliminate the people who don't fit into your hateful concept of a religion arbitrarily, and hope to understand or define the whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Islam does indeed make a distinction between the world of Islam and the Other.
    In every religion there is a recognition that some are believers and some are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    It's the same as American racists saying slavery was justified because blacks weren't really people.
    No, it isn't the same at all. If Christian verses caused USi racists to hold slaves, then Christians in the USA would still be requiring slaves, and considering them subhuman.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Most Muslims are dis-empowered by Muslim leaders.
    I can agree with that: I too think that many Muslims suffer under corrupt leaders. As has happened in other faiths, religion has often been hijacked for corrupt purposes. Because religion is so important in Muslim-majority countries, political manipulators must also become manipulators of religion. But Islam is no more easily-manipulated than any other religion. In a secularized Western world we must look back in time to make a fair comparison, but the worst tyrants of "Western civilization" often claimed that God and the predominant religion was on their side. There is nothing unique about the slanders and distortions of Islamic belief on the part of politicians.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Saudi Arabia directly promotes terrorism by their funding of Madrasses.
    "Madrassas" are schools. There are schools for learning al sorts of things. The Saudi government funds many schools today, but they do not fund the training of terrorists post 9-11. The Saudi government was never a leading sponsor of terrorism. The U.S. government maintains institutions of terrorist training to this day. As for what wealthy private citizens are doing, and where they draw the line between terrorists and resistance fighters, you'll have to be a lot more specific before you can count all that you infer as terrorism to be inspired by Islam.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    They are legally entitled to spend the countries money as they wish. It's only a western perspective that would call that corrupt, but it's designed to be that way institutionally.
    It is not an Islamic perspective that government should be corrupt.

    It was spread by the sword, among other things.[/QUOTE]

    "Other things" which you dismiss are deeply felt and noble. Muslims are not Muslims out of a desire for blood, nor are Muslims muslims out of fear for their lives. To understand this, you need only get to know some Muslims well. If you live isolated from Muslims, I encourage you to break out and discover them. There are many online resources ([url=http://www.whyislam.org/?TabId=165#Q1]Why Islam? is one example) for learning more about Islam- but please try to get to know some Muslims better, if you want to understand them. If the truth is that you do not want to understand them, then you should say so, and then withhold further participation in this thread until you have a genuine interest in it.
    Last edited by hypewaders; 07-06-10 at 03:43 PM.

  15. #335
    Truth can only be half said Café Cappuccino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Where it gets tricky is the difference between group rights and individual rights. Can a group like Muslims have liberty too, or is that only for individuals? In order for a Muslim to even know what they are missing, you have to pull them out of their culture, so that they can make an individual choice. But that very act is an act of destruction, since controlling individual behavior is an integral aspect of their culture (and many others).
    They are entitled to the same rights I am. Which end right were they conflict with the rights of others and the society at large.

    They need the same "domestication" we all needed. In the West we were all of some Christian denomination. We were shown by the social reality that we couldn't and didn't any longer desire to be at each others necks, burning each other and otherwise trampling on each other.

  16. #336
    Truth can only be half said Café Cappuccino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hypewaders
    (...That there is a flaw in the Islamic faith that is causing terrorism to occur....
    But it's not a flaw, it's the exact reason Islam is so widespread.
    Oh yes.
    "Convert or die" is the policy. And since they interpret the presence of foreign powers in lands they interpret belonging to Islam, they can kill whoever. The problem is, these are not honorable killings even in the context of the Quran, but the seed is there. Any softening down is a betrayal, not a of a certain political cause, but of the faith, and therefore, an affront to "the almighty". If they don't take action, they risk going to hell, so they bring hell upon everyone else in order to avoid this, while themselves feeling righteous. It's terrible and viral.
    Last edited by Café Cappuccino; 07-06-10 at 03:52 PM.

  17. #337
    had a mod but let him go spidergoat's Avatar
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    But those organizations are not strictly terrorist (we can explore this here); nor are they in control of the Muslim world; nor are they the recognized theological authorities of mainstream Islam.
    Who cares if mainstream Islam wants to distance themselves from them? It's responsible for them in the first place. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. Wherever it is found it takes the words in the Quran as the literal words of God.



    You are conflating a minority of Muslims (those who hurt women or are barbaric) with all the rest. Islam has spread in many regions where rough tribal justice has been the norm. Where Islam was first revealed, it was in the context of much crueler societies. In many places where Islam now predominates, there remains a struggle for tolerance and justice. Intolerance and injustice are not Islam's intent in theology or mainstream practice.
    Tolerance is a false and misleading ideology. We don't struggle to ignore those with barbaric customs, which is what tolerance really means, we seek to understand and overcome them. Islam doesn't tolerate secular western values, why should we tolerate them. Their vision of the world is a totalitarian theocracy.

    God has not revealed anything to man as an automatic magic cure for sin and injustice- no religion sweeps away all iniquity in its path. It is not a fair comparison to say that Islam promotes justice less than Christianity, for example. When Christianity became a world religion, the Dark Ages soon followed.
    I can object to both. Islam prevents and promotes injustice from my point of view. Law enforcement officials the world over struggle with Islamic practices, as they violate many local laws.




    Then it should be easy to quantify the disparity in deaths at Muslim hands, as compared to human deaths at the hands of non-muslims. The last time I checked the War on Terrorism tally it was obvious (even though Muslim deaths are not counted as carefully) that non-Muslims are way ahead in kills.
    Only due to a temporary imbalance of power.


    Then it should be easy for you to quote such messages from the Muslim mainstream in context. Let's see what you've got.
    2:89-”Therefore, the curse of Allah is upon the unbelievers!”

    2:97-”Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, lo! Allah is an enemy of the unbelievers.”

    2:191-”Kill them (unbelievers) wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”

    2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”
    Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.

    2:218-”But those who believe and those who migrate and struggle in the way of Allah, those, have hope of the mercy of Allah.”
    Those who fight for Allah may have hope of forgiveness.

    3:10-”Those who disbelieve, neither their riches nor their children shall save them from Allah. They shall become the fuel of the fire.”

    3:19-”The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. Those to whom the book was given disagreed among themselves only after knowledge had been given to them, being insolent among themselves. He who disbelieves the verses of Allah indeed Allah is swift in reckoning.”

    3:28-”The believers should not take the unbelievers as friends or helpers in preference to the believers. He who does this does not belong to Allah in anything, unless you have a fear of them.”

    3:110-”You are the best nation ever to be brought forth for people. You order honor and forbid dishonor, and you believe in Allah. Had the people of the book believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are evildoers.”
    Most Jews and Christians are wrongdoers.

    3:151-”We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”

    4:76-”And those who believe fight in the way of Allah, but those who disbelieve fight in cause of evil. therefore, fight against those guided by Satan.”

    4:89-”"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

    4:95-”Those of the believers who sit still…are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above te sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary.”
    Muslims who fight in jihad are better than those who don’t.

    4:101-”"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies.”

    5:12-16-”Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel…. But because they broke their covenant, we cursed them and hardened their hearts. They changed the words from their places and have forgotten a portion of what they were reminded…. With those who called themselves Christians, we made a covenant, but they have forgotten much of what they were reminded. Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred till the day of resurrection.”

    5:51-”O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them in friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.”

    5:64-”They [the Jews] are cursed for what they said!… As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.”

    7:4-”How many a village have we laid in ruin! In the night our might fell upon it, or at midday when they were drowsy.”

    8:12, 14-”I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips…. the punishment of the fire is for the unbelievers.”

    8:39-”Fight them (unbelievers) until persecution is no more and the religion of Allah reigns supreme.”

    8:59-60-”Do not suppose that the unbelievers have outstripped Allah. They cannot frustrate me. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost power, including steeds of war, so that you strike terror into the enemies of allah and your enemy, and others besides them whom you do not know but Allah does.”

    8:65-”O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a nation who do not understand.”

    8:74-”Those who believe and migrated from their homes and fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers.”
    The jihad warriors are the true believers.

    9:1, 3, 5-”For four months you shall journey freely in the land. but know that you shall not render Allah incapable, and that Allah will humiliate the unbelievers…. And give glad tidings to the unbelievers of a painful punishment…. When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.”

    9:14-”Fight them (unbelievers), Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.”

    9:19-”Do you consider giving drink to the pilgrims and inhabiting the sacred mosque is the same as one who believes in Allah and the last day, and struggles in the Way of Allah? These are not held equal by Allah. Allah does not guide the harmdoers. Those who believe, and migrated, and struggle in the Way of Allah with their wealth and their persons are greater in rank with Allah.”

    9:26-”Then, Allah caused his tranquility (sechina) to descend upon his messenger and the believers; he sent legions you did not see and sternly punished the unbelievers. Such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”

    9:29-”Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the last day, who do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated (or feel themselves subdued).”

    9:30-”The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, while the Christians (who follow Paul) say the messiah is the son of Allah. such are their assertions, by which they imitate those who disbelieved before. Allah fights them! How perverted are they!”

    9:33-”It is he who has sent forth his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to uplift it above every religion, no matter how much the idolaters hate it.”
    Islam does not seek equality with other religions. Islam must be above all others.

    9:38-”Believers, why is it that when it is said to you: ‘march in the way of Allah, ‘ you linger with heaviness in the land? Are you content with this life rather than the everlasting life? Yet the enjoyment of this life in (comparison to) the everlasting life is little. If you do not go forth, he will punish you with a painful punishment and replace you by another nation.”
    Those who refuse to wage jihad will face terrible punishment.

    9:41-”Whether lightly or heavily, march on and fight for the way of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew.”

    9:44-”Those who believe in Allah and the last day will not ask your permission so that they may struggle with their wealth and their selves.”
    True believers do not refuse to fight and risk their lives and property for Islam.

    9:49-”Hell shall encompass the unbelievers.”

    9:73-”O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

    9:111-”Allah has purchased from the believers their selves and possessions, and for them is paradise. They fight in the way of Allah, slay, and are slain.”
    Muslim believers fight and so gain paradise.

    9:123-”Believers, fight the unbelievers who are near you. Let them find firmness in you. Know that Allah is with those who are cautious.”

    47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”
    More commands to violence and praise for violent martyrs.

    47:8-”But the unbelievers shall be the destroyed losers. He will bring their deeds to nothing.”

    47:20-”The believers ask: ‘has a chapter been sent down? ‘ but when a clear chapter is sent down and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those in whose hearts is sickness looking towards you as one who swoons at death.”
    The Qu’ran even says that it itself contains chapter mentioning fighting! And it mocks and chastises those not willing to die in battle.

    48:28-29-”It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that he exalts it above all other religions. Allah is the sufficient witness. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those who are with him are harsh against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

    59:2-3-”It was he who expelled the unbelievers among the people of the book from their homes into the first exile. You did not think that they would go out, and they thought their fortresses would protect them from Allah. But Allah came upon them from where they did not expect, casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers. Therefore, take heed you that have eyes. Had it been that Allah had not decreed that they should be dispersed, he would have surely punished them in this world. and in the everlasting life the punishment of the fire awaits them….”

    60:1-3-”O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, when they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path…. They want you to disbelieve. Your relatives and children can never help you. On the Day of Resurrection, He will judge among you. Allah is Seer of everything you do.”
    Muslims are not to take non-Muslims as friends. Leniency is not to be shown to unbelieving friends and family. The spread of Islam through “struggle” takes priority over these relationships.
    61:9-”He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.”

    98:6-”The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be for ever in the fire of gehenna (hell). They are the worst of all creatures.”

    111:1-5-”In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful perish the hands of abilahab, and perish he! His wealth will not suffice him, neither what he has gained; he shall roast at a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with firewood shall have a rope of palmfiber around her neck!”


    Any Muslim can read these words in or out of context and form their ideology from them. They certainly reveal a level of violence, and a will to dominate the planet most modern people should feel uncomfortable with.

    No, it isn't the same at all. If Christian verses caused USi racists to hold slaves, then Christians in the USA would still be requiring slaves, and considering them subhuman.
    It did both. It justified slavery as well as emancipation. It gives any side a righteous justification for what they do. All the more reason to reject it.

    you need only get to know some Muslims well
    Nothing more than a diversionary ploy. I know many Christians well and find them just as institutionally evil- while they think they are good. They might be well-meaning, but they are the victims of an infectious meme, one that seeks to undermine scientific facts when they contradict religious myths, to name just one bad consequence.
    Last edited by spidergoat; 07-06-10 at 03:50 PM.

  18. #338
    Caput gerat lupinum GeoffP's Avatar
    Posts
    20,586
    Quote Originally Posted by hypewaders View Post
    If you are going continue to applaud spidergoat, then prepare to also defend his thesis.
    That's fine: I'm going to let spidergoat have his go at you first, and then I'll come in later on.

    Nonsense. Islam has not spread through terrorist coercion.
    It has certainly spread through violence and social oppression, although not uniformly. This is not really in question.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Who cares if mainstream Islam wants to distance themselves from them?
    Anyone who wants to understand whether we should be attacking Islam, as part of rational counter-terrorism. If (on the other hand) you unwaveringly seek unsubstantiated scapegoats, then you beed look (and converse) no further.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    It's responsible for them in the first place. There is no such thing as moderate Islam.
    Utter bullshit, and hatespeech.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Wherever it is found [Islam] takes the words in the Quran as the literal words of God.
    Good God: That's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Tolerance is a false and misleading ideology.
    No, bigotry is false and misleading.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    We don't struggle to ignore those with barbaric customs, which is what tolerance really means...
    No, I'm taking the time to explain to you that you're wrong, because I am tolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    ...we seek to understand and overcome [those with barbaric customs].
    Yes, and to overcome the barbarism in our past- in the past of all of us; we're all descendants of barbarians.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Islam doesn't tolerate secular western values, why should we tolerate them.
    Secular western "values" permeate the world. Unfortunately, "Western" hubris is still stirring up a lot of trouble. The sex, drugs, and rock n' roll were all a big hit- but the insults to Islam, imperialism and support for zionism have not been.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Their vision of the world is a totalitarian theocracy.
    Every theist believes in God's rule over all his creation. Islam does not teach people to kill or dominate in God's name. Every religion's craziest abberants claim to be taking over the world in God's bloody crusade. But most Muslims do not.

    God has not revealed anything to man as an automatic magic cure for sin and injustice- no religion sweeps away all iniquity in its path. It is not a fair comparison to say that Islam promotes justice less than Christianity, for example. When Christianity became a world religion, the Dark Ages soon followed.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    I can object to both. Islam prevents and promotes injustice from my point of view.
    All human institutions have both prevented and promoted justice. The question here is whether Muslims are more unjust by their faith.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Law enforcement officials the world over struggle with Islamic practices, as they violate many local laws.
    Mainstream Islamic practices? Examples, please.

    It should be easy to quantify the disparity in deaths at Muslim hands, as compared to human deaths at the hands of non-muslims. The last time I checked the War on Terrorism tally it was obvious (even though Muslim deaths are not counted as carefully) that non-Muslims are way ahead in kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Only due to a temporary imbalance of power.
    I am left to surmise that you are conflating the Islamic "menace" with the Red Menace of the 1950s: That they're gonna git us. You haven't demonstrated a rational basis for spreading this kind of fear and loathing.

    It should be easy for you to quote such messages from the Muslim mainstream in context. Let's see what you've got.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    2:89-”Therefore, the curse of Allah is upon the unbelievers!”

    2:97-”Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, lo! Allah is an enemy of the unbelievers.”

    2:191-”Kill them (unbelievers) wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for persecution is worse than slaughter…. Such is the reward of those who reject faith.”

    2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”
    Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.

    2:218-”But those who believe and those who migrate and struggle in the way of Allah, those, have hope of the mercy of Allah.”
    Those who fight for Allah may have hope of forgiveness.

    3:10-”Those who disbelieve, neither their riches nor their children shall save them from Allah. They shall become the fuel of the fire.”

    3:19-”The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. Those to whom the book was given disagreed among themselves only after knowledge had been given to them, being insolent among themselves. He who disbelieves the verses of Allah indeed Allah is swift in reckoning.”

    3:28-”The believers should not take the unbelievers as friends or helpers in preference to the believers. He who does this does not belong to Allah in anything, unless you have a fear of them.”

    3:110-”You are the best nation ever to be brought forth for people. You order honor and forbid dishonor, and you believe in Allah. Had the people of the book believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are evildoers.”
    Most Jews and Christians are wrongdoers.

    3:151-”We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”

    4:76-”And those who believe fight in the way of Allah, but those who disbelieve fight in cause of evil. therefore, fight against those guided by Satan.”

    4:89-”"Seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

    4:95-”Those of the believers who sit still…are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above te sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary.”
    Muslims who fight in jihad are better than those who don’t.

    4:101-”"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies.”

    5:12-16-”Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel…. But because they broke their covenant, we cursed them and hardened their hearts. They changed the words from their places and have forgotten a portion of what they were reminded…. With those who called themselves Christians, we made a covenant, but they have forgotten much of what they were reminded. Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred till the day of resurrection.”

    5:51-”O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them in friendship is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.”

    5:64-”They [the Jews] are cursed for what they said!… As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.”

    7:4-”How many a village have we laid in ruin! In the night our might fell upon it, or at midday when they were drowsy.”

    8:12, 14-”I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips…. the punishment of the fire is for the unbelievers.”

    8:39-”Fight them (unbelievers) until persecution is no more and the religion of Allah reigns supreme.”

    8:59-60-”Do not suppose that the unbelievers have outstripped Allah. They cannot frustrate me. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost power, including steeds of war, so that you strike terror into the enemies of allah and your enemy, and others besides them whom you do not know but Allah does.”

    8:65-”O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a nation who do not understand.”

    8:74-”Those who believe and migrated from their homes and fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers.”
    The jihad warriors are the true believers.

    9:1, 3, 5-”For four months you shall journey freely in the land. but know that you shall not render Allah incapable, and that Allah will humiliate the unbelievers…. And give glad tidings to the unbelievers of a painful punishment…. When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Take them and confine them, then lie in ambush everywhere for them.”

    9:14-”Fight them (unbelievers), Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.”

    9:19-”Do you consider giving drink to the pilgrims and inhabiting the sacred mosque is the same as one who believes in Allah and the last day, and struggles in the Way of Allah? These are not held equal by Allah. Allah does not guide the harmdoers. Those who believe, and migrated, and struggle in the Way of Allah with their wealth and their persons are greater in rank with Allah.”

    9:26-”Then, Allah caused his tranquility (sechina) to descend upon his messenger and the believers; he sent legions you did not see and sternly punished the unbelievers. Such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”

    9:29-”Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the last day, who do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated (or feel themselves subdued).”

    9:30-”The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah, while the Christians (who follow Paul) say the messiah is the son of Allah. such are their assertions, by which they imitate those who disbelieved before. Allah fights them! How perverted are they!”

    9:33-”It is he who has sent forth his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to uplift it above every religion, no matter how much the idolaters hate it.”
    Islam does not seek equality with other religions. Islam must be above all others.

    9:38-”Believers, why is it that when it is said to you: ‘march in the way of Allah, ‘ you linger with heaviness in the land? Are you content with this life rather than the everlasting life? Yet the enjoyment of this life in (comparison to) the everlasting life is little. If you do not go forth, he will punish you with a painful punishment and replace you by another nation.”
    Those who refuse to wage jihad will face terrible punishment.

    9:41-”Whether lightly or heavily, march on and fight for the way of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew.”

    9:44-”Those who believe in Allah and the last day will not ask your permission so that they may struggle with their wealth and their selves.”
    True believers do not refuse to fight and risk their lives and property for Islam.

    9:49-”Hell shall encompass the unbelievers.”

    9:73-”O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

    9:111-”Allah has purchased from the believers their selves and possessions, and for them is paradise. They fight in the way of Allah, slay, and are slain.”
    Muslim believers fight and so gain paradise.

    9:123-”Believers, fight the unbelievers who are near you. Let them find firmness in you. Know that Allah is with those who are cautious.”

    47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”
    More commands to violence and praise for violent martyrs.

    47:8-”But the unbelievers shall be the destroyed losers. He will bring their deeds to nothing.”

    47:20-”The believers ask: ‘has a chapter been sent down? ‘ but when a clear chapter is sent down and fighting is mentioned in it, you see those in whose hearts is sickness looking towards you as one who swoons at death.”
    The Qu’ran even says that it itself contains chapter mentioning fighting! And it mocks and chastises those not willing to die in battle.

    48:28-29-”It is he who has sent his messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, so that he exalts it above all other religions. Allah is the sufficient witness. Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. Those who are with him are harsh against the unbelievers but merciful to one another.”

    59:2-3-”It was he who expelled the unbelievers among the people of the book from their homes into the first exile. You did not think that they would go out, and they thought their fortresses would protect them from Allah. But Allah came upon them from where they did not expect, casting terror into their hearts that their homes were destroyed by their own hands as well as by the hands of the believers. Therefore, take heed you that have eyes. Had it been that Allah had not decreed that they should be dispersed, he would have surely punished them in this world. and in the everlasting life the punishment of the fire awaits them….”

    60:1-3-”O you who believe, you shall not befriend My enemies and your enemies, extending love and friendship to them, when they have disbelieved in the truth that has come to you. They persecute the messenger, and you, just because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you mobilize to struggle in My cause, seeking My blessings, how can you secretly love them? I am fully aware of everything you conceal, and everything you declare. Those among you who do this have indeed strayed off the right path…. They want you to disbelieve. Your relatives and children can never help you. On the Day of Resurrection, He will judge among you. Allah is Seer of everything you do.”
    Muslims are not to take non-Muslims as friends. Leniency is not to be shown to unbelieving friends and family. The spread of Islam through “struggle” takes priority over these relationships.
    61:9-”He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.”

    98:6-”The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the idolaters shall be for ever in the fire of gehenna (hell). They are the worst of all creatures.”

    111:1-5-”In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful perish the hands of abilahab, and perish he! His wealth will not suffice him, neither what he has gained; he shall roast at a flaming fire, and his wife, laden with firewood shall have a rope of palmfiber around her neck!”
    I'm sorry- I see it's not so easy for you to include quotations from the Qur'an in context. We'll need to back up and go slowly.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Any Muslim can read these words in or out of context and form their ideology from them.
    No, a sincere Muslim will not take them out of context.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    They certainly reveal a level of violence, and a will to dominate the planet most modern people should feel uncomfortable with.
    They reveal a violent time, and they reveal a way to overcome such times. So does the Bible.

    If Christian verses caused USi racists to hold slaves, then Christians in the USA would still be requiring slaves, and considering them subhuman.


    [QUOTE=spidergoat;2578700]It did both. It justified slavery as well as emancipation.[/url]

    No, at the time slavery had already been renounced by the leading sects of Christianity. Yes, emancipation was embraced by the Christian mainstream.

    If Christian verses caused USi racists to hold slaves, then Christians in the USA would still be requiring slaves, and considering them subhuman.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    [Christianity] gives any side a righteous justification for what they do. All the more reason to reject it.
    If you are going to reject everything that has been misinterpreted and/or manipulated by ruthless people, you will be left rejecting not only all religion, but every political movement in history. You need only get to know some Muslims well in order to understand that Islam does not entail a propensity for terrorism.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    Nothing more than a diversionary ploy.
    It is not a diversionary ploy to suggest you get to know better the people you accuse of being brainwashed by Islam to accept terrorism as righteous.


    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    I know many Christians well and find them just as institutionally evil- while they think they are good.
    Then you should consider that you have issues with religious people in general, and that this may be coloring your perceptions of Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by spidergoat View Post
    They might be well-meaning, but they are the victims of an infectious meme, one that seeks to undermine scientific facts when they contradict religious myths, to name just one bad consequence.
    What scientific fact is challenged by Islam in your view?

  20. #340
    Registered Senior Member soullust's Avatar
    Posts
    1,380
    I Noticed that Sandy seems to be on the ban list a lot, You think she would learn the first time

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