Islam and Terrorism

[sandy]

Moderator Note: I have renamed this thread to better reflect where the conversation has gravitated from the start. Previous title: Islamists Planned Attacks Across Europe.

Islamist extremists were planning attacks across Europe, especially against public transport. The Al Qaeda-inspired cell planned to attack the Barcelona metro and other targets in Spain, Germany, France, Portugal and the United Kingdom.

An informant told police the group had a preference for attacks on public transport, especially metro systems.

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...rpc=22&sp=true

[Arsalan]

Terrorists... Putting Islam in front of them makes it seem that somehow their actions are islamic

[S.A.M.]

I find it really weird that four of the six were released due to "lack of evidence".

[spidergoat]

So.....it was discovered thanks to good police work. What was that about terror not being a law enforcement problem?

[Norsefire]

Well, let's hope more of them are stopped.

[Read-Only]

Terrorists... Putting Islam in front of them makes it seem that somehow their actions are islamic

Sorry, but that won't stand up. They themselves identify themselves as being Islamic - why would they do that if they weren't??

[S.A.M.]

Sorry, but that won't stand up. They themselves identify themselves as being Islamic - why would they do that if they weren't??

Do American terrorists exemplify America? After all, the guys who raped the fifteen year old then shot her and her five year old sister and burned their bodies were wearing uniform.

[Norsefire]

Sorry, but that won't stand up. They themselves identify themselves as being Islamic - why would they do that if they weren't??

Actually, that will. It does not matter what they label themselves if their actions go against Islam, therefore they are misinformed. Even if they believe they are Muslim, they have a distorted view of the Koran.

[sandy]

Actually, that will. It does not matter what they label themselves if their actions go against Islam, therefore they are misinformed. Even if they believe they are Muslim, they have a distorted view of the Koran.

Which view is that?

"The terrorists are not at all shy about explaining their motives. These Jihadis not only credit their Islamic faith with the violence, but are also more prone to quote from the Qur'an than are their counterparts, who tend to rely on a tiny handful of favorites from the earlier days of Muhammad's career when claiming that terrorism is somehow "against Islam."

We have quoted a portion of the violent verses from the Qur'an and Hadith elsewhere. Here we just want to show that, as far as Islamic terrorists are concerned, their acts are done specifically in the name of Allah for the cause of Islam and Islamic rule... across the globe.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pa...e-of-Allah.htm

[S.A.M.]

You know sandy, that link represents Islam, like this one represents Christianity.

www.evilbible.com

Should we reference it as representative of Christian beliefs and values?

[sandy]

You know sandy, that link represents Islam, like this one represents Christianity.www.evilbible.com
Should we reference it as representative of Christian beliefs and values?

Tell me what part of it was wrong? Islamic terrorists are killing people all over the world every day. That site tracks them and reports them. It also proved that the Islamists are doing most of the killing in Iraq, not the troops. Show me one part of it that is wrong and I will contact the sites' owner and have him explain why he ran it.

[S.A.M.]

Tell me what part of it was wrong? Islamic terrorists are killing people all over the world every day. That site tracks them and reports them. It also proved that the Islamists are doing most of the killing in Iraq, not the troops. Show me one part of it that is wrong and I will contact the sites' owner and have him explain why he ran it.

It would be like showing GWB's connection to evangelicals, his devotion to Christianity and his quotes about God and then calling him a Christian crusader out to kill Muslims.

And that would actually be more accurate than something like this:

"In the name of Allah the Avenger, I swear on the holy book to perform my sacred duty as a soldier of Islam in this Jihad to restore to this world the light of divine justice... Allah demands no less. For to die in the cause is to be sent immediately to paradise."

A Taliban official, explaining why the group is violent.

e.g. Who is this official? Where? Who interviewed him? When?

No real information, only insinuations. Most of the quotes there are like that, no links to real news stories, just quotes, translated and cut and paste selectively.

e.g.

Muslims should die! Jesus said so and our Great Leader is following God.

-White House official explaining why Bush is in Iraq

Would you accept this?

[sandy]

It would be like showing GWB's connection to evangelicals, his devotion to Christianity and his quotes about God and then calling him a Christian crusader out to kill Muslims.

He went to Iraq to take out Saddam. He's not interested in going "out to kill Muslims." He is determined to destroy terrorists (most of whom are Muslims) so I see your point.

... e.g. "Muslims should die! Jesus said so and our Great Leader is following God."
-White House official explaining why Bush is in Iraq" Would you accept this?

Of course not. The difference is that Jesus and the White House never said that, whereas the terrorists are shouting out to Allah before they kill. They brag about being pleasing to Allah by killing. Doesn't the Koran tell Muslims to convert/kill "infidels"?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm

Educate me please. I am more than willing to hear you denounce terrorists. I certainly would denounce them if they were Christians.

[pjdude1219]

Which view is that?

"The terrorists are not at all shy about explaining their motives. These Jihadis not only credit their Islamic faith with the violence, but are also more prone to quote from the Qur'an than are their counterparts, who tend to rely on a tiny handful of favorites from the earlier days of Muhammad's career when claiming that terrorism is somehow "against Islam."

We have quoted a portion of the violent verses from the Qur'an and Hadith elsewhere. Here we just want to show that, as far as Islamic terrorists are concerned, their acts are done specifically in the name of Allah for the cause of Islam and Islamic rule... across the globe.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pa...e-of-Allah.htm

and yet you say the people who bomb abortion clinics do to there self stated christian beliefs are not christian

[sandy]

If an on fire for Jesus born-again Christian bombs an abortion clinic he is
-not a Christian
-having an insane moment
-being a hypocrite
-demon possessed.

Born-again on fire for Jesus Christians don't blow up stuff. "Radicals who have hijacked Islam" do. Daily.

I'm not saying Christians don't do stupid things or sin. They do. But I don't see them blowing stuff up.

[pjdude1219]

If an on fire for Jesus born-again Christian bombs an abortion clinic he is
-not a Christian
-having an insane moment
-being a hypocrite
-demon possessed.

Born-again on fire for Jesus Christians don't blow up stuff. "Radicals who have hijacked Islam" do. Daily.

I'm not saying Christians don't do stupid things or sin. They do. But I don't see them blowing stuff up.

if you want to say islamic beliefs can inspire terrorism to be honest you also have to admit that so can christian beliefs

[Repo Man]

If an on fire for Jesus born-again Christian bombs an abortion clinic he is

-demon possessed.

I'd love to see this used as a defense in a trial. "The devil made me do it!"

But yes, once again the semantic dodge. Christians who do evil, and plainly state that they were doing so because of a biblical justification, are not really Christians at all. Just as waterboarding isn't torture, because the U.S. doesn't torture people, but the U.S. does use waterboarding interrogating certain prisoners. Therefore, waterboarding is not torture! See how easy it is?

Two brothers killed a gay couple in their nearby home a few years ago.

Matson and Mowder, the murder victims, were widely admired in this conservative area for their civic good deeds and the many hours they spent sharing their knowledge of gardening with anyone interested. Their deaths were grisly: First, one was apparently forced to record a new message for their answering machine, claiming they were sick and had gone to San Francisco to see a doctor. The voice on the machine feigned illness, investigators say, but sounded distressed. In the background, another voice could be heard saying, "Just calm down."

They were then forced into their platform bed, which rose seven feet above the floor of their bedroom. From the way the bodies were found and the bloody mess left behind, investigators said the killer or killers stood on chairs at the end of the bed and blasted away at the men. Their nude bodies were discovered by Gary Matson's brother, Roger, who had been dispatched to their home by their father after he heard the odd-sounding telephone message and became worried.

They were affiliated with the Christian Identity movement, the same people who inspired Eric Rudolph to bomb the Olympics.

But Matthew Williams apparently is already crafting his defense, telling his mother that "God has put me here as a witness. I'm going to give them some of the commandments and I'm going to say basically that it's a jurisdictional problem, you know?" he said. "I have followed a higher law ... I have to obey God's law rather than man's law."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/10/06/redding/

You could argue that they "aren't really Christians", but that would be no different than arguing that those who use the Koran to justify killing "aren't really Muslims".

[Arsalan]

Sorry, but that won't stand up. They themselves identify themselves as being Islamic - why would they do that if they weren't??

This is another major flaw in this logic: they dont identifiy themselves as Muslims, they are Muslim because they come from areas which are predominantly Muslim! They dont say we are doing this because we are Muslim. Saying that is the height of stupidity.

This guy has got it all right:

You ask whether I understand that Islamic terrorist acts are religiously motivated?
Sounds like you are "begging the question". You are assuming by the use of the term Islam - a religious faith - that if a member of that religion commits a terrorist act it is religiously motivated, and asking if I understand that.
It's like me asking you - Do you understand that if a Christian commits a terrorist act it is religiously motivated? By calling the terrorist a Christian in that sentence, it begs the real question of the motivation behind the act, and assumes it is religiously motivated because the terrorist is a Christian. It is a circular argument, a logical fallacy. It's as if I say X is true because X is true without saying why.
There can be many motivations for terrorism

The roots of this problem lie in the centuries of colonial domination and the years of de facto colonization since then. The roots of the problem lie in continued Western support to bullies, military dictators, kings, sheikhs and other tyrpes of tyrants in the Muslim world. The roots lie in their systematic oppression. The roots lie is denying the weak to exercise their right to self-determination and self-rule.
Don't blame the reaction for all the mess the colonial masters and their puppets have created on Islam. There is no concept of terrorism or terrorising a single individual in Islam - let alone forcing the world into submission against its will. Colonialists and totalitarians, however, have been using torture (remeber Abu Ghraib and Gurantanamo) collective punishments (Fallujah) and terrorism (shock and awe) as the main tools for making nations submit to their will.
You are facing "Islamist terrorism" and "all terrorists are Muslims" because the victims of your aggression are Muslims. Trying imposing genocidal sanctions on one of your allies and kill 1.8 million of its people. Then, try lying about the same ally - lie through your teeth to the UN and to the world just like your leaders did about Iraq. Then, based on those lies, invade your ally. Kill a million more. And only then you will see a Christian Al-Qaeda and Christianist terrorism, or a Bhuddhist al-Qaeda and Bhuddist terrorism, or may be a Hindu and Jewish Al-Qaeda. People are the same everywhere. Irrespective of what faith they believe in, as human beings they react in the same way. The laws of nature are the same everywhere. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

And btw, iirc the most cases of terrorism take place in South Ameirca, hardly a Muslim area

Also, sandy, there are no verses in the Quran which support anything the terrorists do. In fact, creating disorder and terrorizing people is explicitly forbidden in the Quran!! But I bet you didnt know that, what a surprise eh

[sandy]

...Christians who do evil, and plainly state that they were doing so because of a biblical justification, are not really Christians at all. You could argue that they "aren't really Christians", but that would be no different than arguing that those who use the Koran to justify killing "aren't really Muslims".

I have no problem calling a born-again Christian a dreadful @sshole if he is one like Ted Haggard the abomination. Muslims are using the Koran to justify their terrorism. Daily.

...there are no verses in the Quran which support anything the terrorists do. In fact, creating disorder and terrorizing people is explicitly forbidden in the Quran!! But I bet you didnt know that, what a surprise eh

Yeah, right.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...l-and-hate.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...de-bombing.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...avoid-hell.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/029-torture.htm

[pjdude1219]

I have no problem calling a born-again Christian a dreadful @sshole if he is one like Ted Haggard the abomination. Muslims are using the Koran to justify their terrorism. Daily.



Yeah, right.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...3-violence.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...l-and-hate.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...de-bombing.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...avoid-hell.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/029-torture.htm

and christians use the bible as justifacation for their hatreds daily your point