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Thread: Translation & Muslims

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    He's not really interested in learning. Notice how he ignored the reference to an entire sura on kuffar. There are some here who pretend an interest, but clearly are only interested in confirming their own beliefs.
    from wiki:

    Kafir (Arabic: كافر kāfir; plural كفّار kuffār) is an Arabic word literally meaning "ingrate". In the Islamic doctrinal sense the term refers to a person who does not recognize Allah or the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad (i.e. any non-Muslim) or who hides, denies, or covers the truth. In cultural terms, it is seen as a derogatory term[1] used to describe an unbeliever, non-Muslims, apostate from Islam and even between Muslims of different sects. It is usually translated into English as "infidel" or "unbeliever."

    The islamic law (sharia) distinguishes three types of kafirs:

    1. kafir dhimmi
    2. kafir harbi
    3. kafir musta'min

    Debate exists between some Muslim scholars as to whether the term applies to Jews and Christians, and later Zoroastrians, as these can also be regarded as Ahl-ul Kittab, People of the Book or Dhimmi ("protected people"). "Kafir" has been used historically to identify Hindus, Buddhists, and followers of non-denominational religions or local, pagan traditions. Some distinguish between Kafir and non-Muslims, as Kafir is used by the Qur'an for people who were guilty of rejection or non-acceptance of what it says is the truth, even after it has supposedly become fully apparent to them, while non-Muslim is primarily a term implying a person who does not ascribe to the Islamic faith.[2]

  2. #122
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Sure, if she wants to follow Mohammed, all she has to do is get an Islamic teacher (as I did) to teach her the religion.

    Since there are several Japanese Muslims it will not be a novel concept.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Sure, if she wants to follow Mohammed, all she has to do is get an Islamic teacher (as I did) to teach her the religion.
    You seem to suggest that I'm reading what I want to read into the verse. My point is this is what it seems to say plain as day. So, to settle the dispute I'm going to ask her to read it as a third party and we'll just see what she says it means to her.

    Fair enough?

  4. #124
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    And? What does that have to do with Sura 109?

  5. #125
    Salam Shalom Salom
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    Well, this is beyond me now but I have a humble suggestion: focus on patriotism! I am FAR more patriotic than religious and would pick Syria over Islam anyday. Religion and Government......bad combo.


    So...let's promote Patriotism!

  6. #126
    Salam Shalom Salom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    You seem to suggest that I'm reading what I want to read into the verse. My point is this is what it seems to say plain as day. So, to settle the dispute I'm going to ask her to read it as a third party and we'll just see what she says it means to her.

    Fair enough?
    Not necessarily. Is she informed on the current situation in Iraq, etc, and is she pro-American? That would have to be cleared up before the experiment to eliminate any bias. Also, maturity level?

  7. #127
    Please - don't go there - no appealing to authority. Give me the link and I'll ask her if she'll do it.

  8. #128
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    You seem to suggest that I'm reading what I want to read into the verse. My point is this is what it seems to say plain as day. So, to settle the dispute I'm going to ask her to read it as a third party and we'll just see what she says it means to her.

    Fair enough?
    Only if you give her the whole Quran and an Islamic teacher to explain how to read the verses.

    The Quran is not a book to be taken or studied lightly.

    It is a philosophy of life and needs investment of time effort and dedication.

    Your implication is similar to the one where one can merely close one's eyes and become a Buddhist. '

    It does not work like that.

  9. #129
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Please - don't go there - no appealing to authority. Give me the link and I'll ask her if she'll do it.
    On disbelievers?

    Here
    Its a small Sura and as its a Qul, its short and requires no contextual knowledge

    Surah 109:
    Al-Kafiroon (The Disbelievers, Atheists)

    In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

    1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

    2. I worship not that which ye worship,

    3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

    5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

  10. #130
    Salam Shalom Salom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    Please - don't go there - no appealing to authority. Give me the link and I'll ask her if she'll do it.
    Are you replying to me?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Norsefire View Post
    Not necessarily. Is she informed on the current situation in Iraq, etc, and is she pro-American? That would have to be cleared up before the experiment to eliminate any bias. Also, maturity level?
    She's admittedly a simple person. She doesn't watch news unless it's a "morning show" because other news is boring. Seriously she talk me that the other day. Even I was asking her about Buddha and Shinto and she really didn't seem to know too much. Like what Buddha's Indian name was - no idea. Is she pro-American? I know she likes Sex and City and can't wait for the movie. Is that pro-American? I'm sure if an Arab fashion design became popular she'd be pro-that fashion design.

    My only worry is she may not get everything that's going on in the Sura BUT if it's in Japanese she will get an impression of sorts. We can agree right now to what I will ask. I was thinking:

    Can you read this and just tell me what you think it means.

    We'll see what we get

  12. #132
    What does this tell you about polytheistic people like some ancient Hindu or modern day Shinto or what about Scientology or other monotheists like Mormons or even Baha'i?
    Instead of laboriously studying the teachings of every religion you impose on me, I will simply ask you if they meet this criteria:

    [2:285] The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."

    Blood is thicker than water?!?! You think BLOOD is ticker than water is something good to preach??? REALLY??!?!?

    How about this: We are all humans and supporting one another is thicker than blood. You remember: The Universality thingy??? Human dignity over that of petty tribal bullshit.
    Islam is a religion, Michael, meaning it is available for every single person who wishes to embrace it. Things that we cannot control, such as race, ethnicity, gender, etc, are not part of the qualifications. To be Muslim, you must believe in no God but Allah, and Muhammad as His messenger. Muslims believe strongly in the concept of ummah, and we are encouraged to help ourselves and be independent. Remember, Allah does not change what is in a people until they change what is in themselves.

  13. #133
    Salam Shalom Salom
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    Might I add that racially, Islam has no discrimination, unlike Christianity which is percieved as "for the White man only".

  14. #134
    Salam Shalom Salom
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    She's admittedly a simple person. She doesn't watch news unless it's a "morning show" because other news is boring. Seriously she talk me that the other day. Even I was asking her about Buddha and Shinto and she really didn't seem to know too much. Like what Buddha's Indian name was - no idea. Is she pro-American? I know she likes Sex and City and can't wait for the movie. Is that pro-American? I'm sure if an Arab fashion design became popular she'd be pro-that fashion design.

    My only worry is she may not get everything that's going on in the Sura BUT if it's in Japanese she will get an impression of sorts. We can agree right now to what I will ask. I was thinking:

    Can you read this and just tell me what you think it means.

    We'll see what we get
    I didn't necessarily mean pro-American politics, but just pro-American culture or life. It is still a bias, and might I add, quite a strong one too.

    Also, it depends on maturity level and knowledge of the world. Perhaps she thinks herself as "American" and is not proud of her Japanese descent? Perhaps because of this, it will incline her to sway anti_Moslem, and her maturity level would affect this as well.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Norsefire View Post
    Are you replying to me?
    no that was because SAM was (and did) say that it's not possible to read and get anything out of the Qur'an without "serious" study.

    Fine - if no one's interested then screw it. I won't waste my time. But I will say this. People of all walks of life can watch a play by Shakespeare and "get it". Actually, I'd say the more perfect the book the more apt it should be to be read by anyone and they be moved by the words.


    I'm 100% the 99.999999999% of Muslims are not monks and don't spend all day studying The Good Book. They do their bit and move on. THESE are the types of people that the book should be making sense to - and if not then really it's a waste of time for 99.9999999999% of the people.

    Michael

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadark View Post
    Instead of laboriously studying the teachings of every religion you impose on me, I will simply ask you if they meet this criteria:

    [2:285] The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of His messengers." They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."
    I'm not Shinto but I can tell you Shinto don't worship God's outside of Japan. They have a totally different mythos of how life began on Earth - actually I should say life in Japan. You see, when the Gods created life - it basically made Japan. So the story is focused mainly on Japan.

    I little centric huh??? I find it kind of funny - and the Gods created Japan...

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Norsefire View Post
    Might I add that racially, Islam has no discrimination, unlike Christianity which is percieved as "for the White man only".
    Oh please. China is Xian's biggest market! Also all of the Africans I know are Xian.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Norsefire View Post
    I didn't necessarily mean pro-American politics, but just pro-American culture or life. It is still a bias, and might I add, quite a strong one too.

    Also, it depends on maturity level and knowledge of the world. Perhaps she thinks herself as "American" and is not proud of her Japanese descent? Perhaps because of this, it will incline her to sway anti_Moslem, and her maturity level would affect this as well.
    I'm saying she doens't even know whose Mohammad is. Never heard of him. She's never been to America. She study'd ballet in London. BUT she's never been to the USA. Her sister went on a Japanese tour of New York for shopping once.

    I'm saying she doens't care for religion. I asked her once what happens when she dies and she said she'll be a ghost. I said a GHOST?!?? Well can you go to Australia??? She said - yeah but maybe I have to take a plane because it's a far way to float. I said you're kidding me. She said: Well I really don't know until I die.

    That's true

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Norsefire View Post
    Might I add that racially, Islam has no discrimination, unlike Christianity which is percieved as "for the White man only".
    There are branches of Islam where Arabs are the top, your probably do not percieve that as discrimination though. You would need to search pretty hard to find no discrimination in any particular group.

    In U.S the African Americans are some of the more serious Christians and also Latin American's too - they're not white. Having been around American Muslims i never felt any discrimination either though.

  20. #140
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    Well Kadark, I'm afraid so.

    I very much appreciate you taking the time.

    It's late for me so I won't cover all of Kadark's deceit, just the first part.

    The first reference to the People of the Book is not 5:18, it's 5:5. What Kadark has done is precisely what Kadark blames everyone else of doing - taking verses out of context.

    Let's look at the whole group of verses, 5:12 to 5:18 so that 5:18 can be made more clear.

    5:12 Talks about the covenant with the Children of Israel and reminds them "...but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude." OK so far.

    5:13 "But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them..."

    Oops! Looks like the Jews have breached their covenant (by rejecting Muhammad's (PBUH) prophesy). Now they are cursed and their hearts are hardened. As we will see later they also created a false Torah.

    5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

    Well, things aren't looking too good for the Christians either are they? They forgot their message and now we see enmity and hatred already! We will see later the Christians also have a false Gospel.

    5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

    Allah is bemoaning the Jews have rejected Muhammad's message. Again a reference to the false Torah. They hid the prophesy of Muhammad (PBUH). Muhammad (PBUH) got really angry when the Jews rejected him.

    5:16 Allah guides people. etc.

    5:17 In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."

    Ouch! The blaspheming Christians are cursed too!

    And now 5:18 begins to make sense:

    5:18 (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth

    Here the Jews say they are children of God. But next Allah asks why are they being punished? Then states they are not actually children of God, they are only men. This is because they rejected Muhammad (PBUH).

    So, here we see Allah castigating both Jews and Christians, and cursing them. They are estranged, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other.

    So folks, why do you think Kadark is leaving all of this out?

    Likewise Kadark has taken the other verses out of context in his deceit. I can of course cover the rest of Sura 5 later. It goes downhill from here. We will see indeed the People of the book are unbelievers, kufr, and get a hint of what punishment awaits them.

    Ibn Warraq, a well known Muslim jurist (cleric) says: “The supposedly noble sentiments are in fact a warning to Jews. ‘Behave, or else’ is the message. Far from abjuring violence, these verses aggressively point out that anyone opposing the Prophet will be killed, crucified, mutilated, and banished!

    Care to take another stab at it Kadark? This time not selectively filtering, not taking out of context?

    By the way, after Kadark mentioned genocide earlier, I had asked him what happens to the Jews in the end-of-times. He didn't care to answer that either. Could it be because the Jews are slaughtered?

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