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Thread: Translation & Muslims

  1. #81
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invert_nexus View Post
    Oh. And on the topic of translation.
    Here's an example from the bible.

    Name one the 10 commandments.
    Love thy neighbor?

  2. #82
    Bah!
    You're supposed to say, "Thou shalt not kill." 9 out of 10 people will respond with that commandment when prodded. In fact, it may well be the only one they remember often.

    Anyway.

    The point is that it is a clear contradiction in that this commandment is laid down in clear and precise terms.
    Thou shalt not kill.
    No quibbling. No ambiguousness. No exceptions or dangling clauses.
    Yet, God immediately after (well after a pause of wandering for a few years further) commands them to go into Canaan and kill everyone there.

    Stammering is usually the result when christians are presented with this. They then go on to say that god can command you to kill if he wants (which I respond with the fact that this may be so, but then the commandments are worthless then). But, they generally settle in with the idea that the original word was not 'kill' but something more akin to 'murder'. Very different. Yet less contradictory.

  3. #83
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Ah, I missed the memo. Sorry

  4. #84
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by invert_nexus View Post
    Bah!
    You're supposed to say, "Thou shalt not kill." 9 out of 10 people will respond with that commandment when prodded. In fact, it may well be the only one they remember often.
    I was going to say, "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors female slave."

    One of my all time faves.

  5. #85
    It is very dry in here today PsychoticEpisode's Avatar
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    The fact that a book, any book, can be worded in such a way that when translated or analyzed can induce one human being to kill another means it is of more service to mankind as recyclable paper.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadark View Post
    Considering that there is no verse in the Qur'an that remotely resembles the demand for a genocide of all Jews, I'd say the opening topic is obsolete.
    Thus far we haven't really been talking about genocide, we have been talking about hate and enmity between Jews and Muslims.

    But since you bring it up, tell me, in Islamic eschatology and tradition, what finally happens to the Jews?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadark View Post
    Wrong. Jews are considered People of the Book.
    You are being deceitful here!

    What do you learn about the Jews in Sura 5? I'd really like your opinion. Is there any way to interpret this to say the Jews are good buddies of the Muslims?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode View Post
    The fact that a book, any book, can be worded in such a way that when translated or analyzed can induce one human being to kill another means it is of more service to mankind as recyclable paper.
    Like the law?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode View Post
    The fact that a book, any book, can be worded in such a way that when translated or analyzed can induce one human being to kill another means it is of more service to mankind as recyclable paper.
    I disagree. But even if true, obviously not all religions are affected equally by this problem. All around the world people are being killed daily in the name of one God - Allah. If Islam were really a religion of peace, obviously we have here a catastrophic problem with either translation or interpretation. Why is this?

  10. #90
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Or just plain demonisation

  11. #91
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    We have several Muslims participating in this thread. They are challenging the notion that there is hate and enmity toward non-Muslims in the Qur’an and Hadiths.

    But I don’t know if you are genuinely arguing your point, or trying to hide the truth. I believe we can only go forward with the discussion of translation and interpretation issues after each one of you agrees to the following:


    I renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state, with Sharia Law even by peaceful means.

    I believe Muslims should be taught the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.

    I agree that comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world should teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.



    If all of the Muslims will simply reply “I agree”, then we could continue to discuss why some Muslims see the Qur’an and Hadiths as invitations to violence.

  12. #92
    It is very dry in here today PsychoticEpisode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Like the law?
    The law tells people to kill? Actually seek out someone and kill them? Or are you referring to Islamic law?
    Last edited by PsychoticEpisode; 12-16-07 at 05:26 PM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode View Post
    The law tells people to kill? Actually seek out someone and kill them? Or are you referring to Islamic law?
    Islamic law tells people to kill? Actually seek out someone and kill them?

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    We have several Muslims participating in this thread. They are challenging the notion that there is hate and enmity toward non-Muslims in the Qur’an and Hadiths.

    But I don’t know if you are genuinely arguing your point, or trying to hide the truth. I believe we can only go forward with the discussion of translation and interpretation issues after each one of you agrees to the following:


    I renounce definitively not just "terrorism," but any intention to replace the U.S. Constitution or the constitutions of any non-Muslim state, with Sharia Law even by peaceful means.

    I believe Muslims should be taught the imperative of coexisting peacefully as equals with non-Muslims on an indefinite basis.

    I agree that comprehensive international programs in mosques all over the world should teach against the ideas of violent jihad and Islamic supremacism.



    If all of the Muslims will simply reply “I agree”, then we could continue to discuss why some Muslims see the Qur’an and Hadiths as invitations to violence.
    I always find it incredibly hilarious to read stuff like this.

    What is the west so fearful of?

    That everyone who immigrates to their countries will assimilate the way they did?

    By genocide and wiping out of culture, language and people?

    Har de har.

    Show me one country where a Western people assimilated with the natives.

  15. #95
    Show me one country where a Western people assimilated with the natives.
    Mexico.

  16. #96
    It is very dry in here today PsychoticEpisode's Avatar
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    You're extra touchy today. They weren't statements, if you look closely, you'll see they are questions.

    If Audubon's Birds of America could be translated to 'go out and kill someone' then it would deserve to be trashed also. You know all too well that bibles are taken quite seriously by some folk to the point where the reader deems it appropriate to commit murder. Completely justified in their mind. Religious extremists have killed in the name of many religions.

    Don't get so upset. I'm not trying to single out Islam. Lord knows enough Christians gained the inspiration to kill their fellow man from reading their bible. If just one death can be attributed to a biblical translation then it isn't a good book. School Boards & libraries would ban it in a heartbeat if it was any other book. Rest easy, that isn't going to happen but people will continue to die for no other reason than a translation of religious text. It's a goddamn shame.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I always find it incredibly hilarious to read stuff like this.

    What is the west so fearful of?

    That everyone who immigrates to their countries will assimilate the way they did?

    By genocide and wiping out of culture, language and people?

    Har de har.

    Show me one country where a Western people assimilated with the natives.

    I post this not out of fear, but to get to the motivations of those who post here.

    Thanks for your answer though!

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadark View Post
    You targetted Sam by saying "propagandists like you", when she can actually read Arabic. Being able to speak Arabic, she wouldn't have to rely on translations. I'm well aware that not everyone can read Arabic.
    Interestingly, I had read the Arabic is a translation itself as the original Arbaic didn't have the diacritical mark - can anyone here read the Qur'an without the diacritical marks???

    RE: Sura 9

    Well I just read it. Pretty straight forward to me.


    In a nut shell GOD doesn't like people who are either idol worshipers (Hindu/Shinto/Buddhists/etc..) or disbelievers (Atheists/Agnostics/etc..) and one day they will get theirs. Yup, copied straight from the Torah with the universality of the Bible. Really there is absolutely nothing new here.

    It's pretty caveman type writing, nothing really of value in the modern person. But, lets be realistic, this sort of ick was probably very useful for ruling over all sorts of people from those living in Civilized Rome and ancient Egypt to tribal Arabs.

    Maybe it's just me but in the modern age it just paints God as a petty sock-puppet like creature.

  19. #99
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    Arabic is usually written without the marks. Have you ever seen an Arabic newspaper?

    The marks are for those who are not native speakers/

    And yeah, I knew that would be your conclusion.
    Last edited by S.A.M.; 12-16-07 at 07:11 PM.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by invert_nexus View Post
    Mexico.
    They speak the native language? The natives were Mexicans?

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