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Thread: Translation & Muslims

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael View Post
    I'm a supporter of secular pluralistic society - this means I support Islam SAM.

    Michael
    Have to question this Michael. Islam is as much a political system as a religion. It governs all aspects of life including political life. Islam and "secular pluralistic" do not go together. This would mean Islam accepts the laws of Man over the laws of Allah.

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    The one world Caliphate, if it ever comes about will be brought about by the West.

    Before the Islamophobia that has become the norm now, most Muslims did not care what Muslims in other countries thought or did, or how they practised their religion or what their society was like.
    How will the West bring about the Caliphate?

    Why does "Islamophobia" exist?

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    How will the West bring about the Caliphate?

    Why does "Islamophobia" exist?
    I already answered the first one in the post from where it is quoted.

    As to the second? I don't know. Why is every issue about Muslims splashed across the media? Why does beating to death and torture of gays in Alabama not occupy national attention to the same extent as the situation with gays in Iran? Why do people care more about a rape case victim in Saudi Arabia than 70,000 people incarcerated by the US without trial or charge, kept in secret prisons and tortured with impunity?

    Thats a question you have to ask yourself.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I already answered the first one in the post from where it is quoted.

    As to the second? I don't know. Why is every issue about Muslims splashed across the media?
    In the West, there is a secular quote about morality: Never do something you wouldn't want to see on the evening news. Why are there so many Muslim issues?

    Why does beating to death and torture of gays in Alabama not occupy national attention to the same extent as the situation with gays in Iran?
    Because what happened in Alabama is exceedingly rare and it isn't denied and it isn't state sponsored. Because Iran denies it has gays. Because we think the death penalty, lashes or any punishment for being gay is wrong. Does Islam think gays should be punished or killed?

    Why do people care more about a rape case victim in Saudi Arabia
    Do you think the original punishment was proper? In the West we don't like punishing victims. We see this as very unusual and weird and wonder if it represents Islam as a whole. Does it?

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    ]In the West, there is a secular quote about morality: Never do something you wouldn't want to see on the evening news. Why are there so many Muslim issues?
    Why are there so many Christian ones? Have you addressed the genocide of natives? Apologised for slavery? Made reparation for colonisation? For the atomic bombs? For Vietnam, Nicaragua, Phillipines, Greece, Africa, Asia, America?
    Because what happened in Alabama is exceedingly rare and it isn't denied and it isn't state sponsored. Because Iran denies it has gays. Because we think the death penalty, lashes or any punishment for being gay is wrong. Does Islam think gays should be punished or killed?
    Are you following the Bible? If not, why not? How do you decide which part is the "okay to be overlooked" word of God?

    If you think any punishment for being gay is wrong, why are gays not treated equally? And its not a rare happening, its mostly an ignored demographic.

    http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Alabam...ists_0527.html

    Do you think the original punishment was proper? In the West we don't like punishing victims. We see this as very unusual and weird and wonder if it represents Islam as a whole. Does it?
    Do you think other countries should have a right to decide what legal system America follows? e.g. Should Saudi Arabia impose an international action on the US incareration of people without charge or trial?

    Does Gitmo represent Christianity? Does the Holocaust? Is that what you personally stand for as a Christian?

    Why does none of this get splashed across the media?

  6. #266
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    SAM, I do understand your views. But this thread is about Islam and I wish to understand Islam better. I am not here to defend anything. But you seem hesitant to ever answer a quesiton about Islam. Why is that?

    Let me try a couple of others.

    Does Islam view Christians who worship the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as committing Shirk?

    Sura 9:30 says in part: "The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah". I frankly don't know much about the Jews but I thought they worshiped God only. Who or what is Uzair? Do some or all Jews worship Uzair?

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    SAM, I do understand your views. But this thread is about Islam and I wish to understand Islam better. I am not here to defend anything. But you seem hesitant to ever answer a quesiton about Islam. Why is that?

    Let me try a couple of others.

    Does Islam view Christians who worship the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) as committing Shirk?

    Sura 9:30 says in part: "The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah". I frankly don't know much about the Jews but I thought they worshiped God only. Who or what is Uzair? Do some or all Jews worship Uzair?
    If you know even a little bit about Islam, you would know that it does not ascribe divinity to Christ. So making idols of Jesus and Mary and worshipping them (who were human beings) is shirk in Islam

    Uzair is Arabic for Ezra, so I would guess it refers to the book of Ezra

  8. #268
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    I understand the Injeel says Christ was not crucified. Is an Injeel available on-line? I have never read any of it.

    What does it say about Jesus after the crucifixion? Did he go into hiding? Or did he go preach elsewhere? When did he really die?

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    If you know even a little bit about Islam, you would know that it does not ascribe divinity to Christ. So making idols of Jesus and Mary and worshipping them (who were human beings) is shirk in Islam

    Uzair is Arabic for Ezra, so I would guess it refers to the book of Ezra
    Yes but the Qur'an also has some generous things to say about the people who believe in the Gospel. I believe you quoted one such verse early in this conversation. When the Qur'an refers to the Gospel, it is referring to the Injeel?

    So is there something in Esra the Jews worship?
    Last edited by Revolvr; 12-19-07 at 09:36 AM. Reason: typo

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    I understand the Injeel says Christ was not crucified. Is an Injeel available on-line? I have never read any of it.

    What does it say about Jesus after the crucifixion? Did he go into hiding? Or did he go preach elsewhere? When did he really die?
    According to the Quran (the Injeel was the Gospel of Christ, not the history of Christ), Jesus was rescued as all prophets under God are (and possibly, died of old age.)

    More:
    http://islam.about.com/cs/jesus/f/jesus_quran.htm

  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    Yes but the Qur'an also has some generous things to say about the people who believe in the Gospel. I believe you quoted one such verse early in this conversation. When the Qur'an refers to the Gospel, it is referring to the Injeel?

    So is there something in Esra the Jews worship?
    Not all Christians worship Christ, though most of the gnostics converted to Islam.

    The Injeel is the Gospel of Christ.

    I believe that Ezra was worshipped in some parts of Yemen, but I haven't delved into it. Anyway, even if it was present, all devout Jews have abandoned all such heresy in the present and reverted to faith.

  12. #272
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    OK thanks, I'll look through it. Since it contains the Gosples only, it wouldn't contain, say, John's book of Revelations right?

    I am curious because frequently the Qur'an will say something like "...who believe in Allah and the Last Day". I'd like your opinion on this. When I look at Christian creeds I rarely see any mention of the end-of-times prophesy. Most Christians don't know much about it. This aspect seems to have less importance to Christians than to Muslims. Is the end-of-times prophesy more critical to Muslim beliefs?

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  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post

    I believe that Ezra was worshipped in some parts of Yemen, but I haven't delved into it. Anyway, even if it was present, all devout Jews have abandoned all such heresy in the present and reverted to faith.
    OK that helps me understand. When 9:30 says "The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah", those Jews would be guilty of shirk too. However today none worship Ezra, so the Jews of today are not guilty of shirk?

  15. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    OK thanks, I'll look through it. Since it contains the Gosples only, it wouldn't contain, say, John's book of Revelations right?

    I am curious because frequently the Qur'an will say something like "...who believe in Allah and the Last Day". I'd like your opinion on this. When I look at Christian creeds I rarely see any mention of the end-of-times prophesy. Most Christians don't know much about it. This aspect seems to have less importance to Christians than to Muslims. Is the end-of-times prophesy more critical to Muslim beliefs?
    I think you will find the yaum-al Qiyamat (Last Day or literally Day of Resurrction) in Islam mirrors the aharit ha-yamim in Judaism.
    The archangel Israfil, referred to as the Caller, will sound a horn sending out a "Blast of Truth" (Qur'an 50.37-42, 69.13-18, 74.8, 78.18). This event is also found in Jewish eschatology, in the Jewish belief of "The Day of the Blowing of the Shofar", Yom Terua and in Ezekiel 33:6:
    As to what it means:

    In the Quran, there is only this
    "He questions: "When is the Day of Resurrection?". At length, when the sight is dazed, And the moon is buried in darkness. And the sun and moon are joined together." (75.6-9)

    This ayat is interpreted in many ways. Classical commentators Al-Jalalayn, Al-Tabari and Al-Qortobi interpret this verse as meaning that the sun and moon are joined in darkness, rather than physically merged together.
    All the rest is just speculation.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    OK that helps me understand. When 9:30 says "The Jews call ‘Uzair a son of Allah", those Jews would be guilty of shirk too. However today none worship Ezra, so the Jews of today are not guilty of shirk?
    I think anyone who recognises the difference between an idol and God cannot be accused of shirk.

  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I think anyone who recognises the difference between an idol and God cannot be accused of shirk.
    Agreed!

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I think you will find the yaum-al Qiyamat (Last Day or literally Day of Resurrction) in Islam mirrors the aharit ha-yamim in Judaism.
    From what I've read I would agree they mirror each other.

    But the end-of-times beliefs between Shiite and Sunni are different yes? Many Shiites believe the Mahdi will return to earth one day as savior. The Sunni believe something else?

  19. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadark View Post
    If you know that Islam is a falsehood, then you have nothing to worry about. If you are genuinely concerned as to how Islam treats atheists and won't accept a negative answer, then perhaps you are insecure about your lack of faith.
    This is an absurdity. How can a negative answer be provided when the evidence - and history - answers in the affirmative? How can Michael's interpretation of the evidence be called insecurity in his own faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I would say that person has a lot of other issues besides religion.
    Why? A person cannot simply be agnostic? You know, it's strange, but ever since my return I don't have that old chauvinism for the nonadherents. I see it around, though: and that's the funny part.

    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    I find no bigotry inherent in it. Its a statement of fact. I will say to an atheist, you follow your way, let me follow mine. There are no two ways about it. Why pretend there are?
    Again, you dissemble. It isn't about differentiation, but the language in which it's done. Sam's "no bigotry inherent" is like her saying that one really should "call a spade a spade", "just because it's so". It's absurd. Unbeliever is marginally acceptable; kuffar - another term Sam likes a lot - is not. This is a reasonable rule. Similarly, I don't say "Mohammedan", although this, too, is accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    Have to question this Michael. Islam is as much a political system as a religion. It governs all aspects of life including political life. Islam and "secular pluralistic" do not go together. This would mean Islam accepts the laws of Man over the laws of Allah.
    I think the evidence illustrates this becomes true in the majority. And barring humanitarian Reformation - unlikely at best - this won't really change.
    Last edited by GeoffP; 12-19-07 at 11:00 AM.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolvr View Post
    From what I've read I would agree they mirror each other.

    But the end-of-times beliefs between Shiite and Sunni are different yes? Many Shiites believe the Mahdi will return to earth one day as savior. The Sunni believe something else?
    I have stated this elsewhere but it bears repeating here:

    Another point where people know little about Islam is that there is a great deal of religious plurality within Islamic thought.

    e.g. there are four Madhabs in Islam, which represent four schools of thought, embracing social, political and legal diversity. The dominant one is the Hanafi, but even within the Hanafi, there is a wide variety, from the Wahabis of Saudi Arabia to the Sufis of India. I know very little about the other madhabs but they are out there. To give some perspective the Shias (prominent in Iraq and Iran) form around 6-8% of all Muslims and even they have different sects within them. So viewing the Islamic world as one large mass of people is inconsistent with the range of beliefs within the religion.

    What makes Islam appear as one belief is the fact that except for some newly arisen taqfiri sects (like the Wahabis), who insist that anyone not following their way are not "true" Muslims, there has never been any argument within Islam about the "right" way to follow it. On the assumption that all humans have limited understanding and knowledge and cannot decide what is the right way, all ways of following Islam have been given equal status and left to the individual community. Even the Sunni-Shia divide, largely political in nature, was eliminated when the al-Azhar university (teh premier Islamic studies university in the world) recognised that Shite Islam and Sunni Islam are all under one God and included it in the university syllabus.

    This has had both positive and negative effects. On the positive side, it has allowed for diversity to flourish within the religion and live side by side and made it easy for people to move within the religion from one kind of thinking to another, this has also helped the religion to adapt.

    The negative point here is that since there is no agreement on what is the right way to do it, people have adopted extreme interpretations (like Abdul Wahab, who decided a hundred years ago that all women should wear black from tip to toe) and were backed by inscrupulous leaders who exploited these changes (Wahab would be just a blip in the history books without Saud).

    So yes, there have been plenty of discussions, plenty of Fiqh is out there, lots of Islamic thought from the very conservative to the very liberal. What we do not have is a central authority to say, this is right, or this is wrong. This has unfortunately become the purview of politicians. So you have Ataturk banning the hijab in Turkey, Saud enforcing it in KSA, and both are neither right nor wrong.


    So to answer your question, there is no Sunni belief or Shia belief. Not all Sunnis share one belief, not all Shias share one belief.

    But yes, in general, there is some belief in a Mahdi etc which the ithna' ashara believe in.

    For me, this is a deal breaker

    The concept of Mahdi is not explicitly mentioned in the Qu'ran, but there are many hadith (traditional sayings of Muhammad) on the Mahdi.
    I don't get excited about stuff that is not mentioned in the Quran.

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