My Final Theory

[Reiku]

Righto.

Gloria self-reflectus, et Graviora Manent.

[MetaKron]

Yeah, well...



Of course it is, and no he didn't.

What is predicted by GR is that time, as observed by someone far outside the event horizon, would appear to be stopped for the poor fellow at the event horizon, not that he would appear frozen at the event horizon.

Particles clearly will progress very rapidly across the EH even though they will be observed to be highly gravitationally time dilated (and probably velocity time dilated as well).

Please leave off playing games when you knew exactly what I meant.

[superluminal]

What is predicted by GR is that time, as observed by someone far outside the event horizon, would appear to be stopped for the poor fellow at the event horizon, not that he would appear frozen at the event horizon.

Particles clearly will progress very rapidly across the EH even though they will be observed to be highly gravitationally time dilated (and probably velocity time dilated as well).

Ok. My research informs me that this is not entirely correct. Apparently an outside observer will see particles slowed to a virtual stop as they approach the EH.

So, ben, what is the real mechanism at work here? (assuming we can still observe the particle even though it's light is red-shifted into the long radio portion of the spectrum).

[superluminal]

Please leave off playing games when you knew exactly what I meant.

You really do have a stick up your butt.

[Reiku]

Or someone is confusing the fact that zero time is spent actually at the event horizon with the idea that the object is frozen in time.

This is what i meant. Sorry if i sounded incoherent.

[Reiku]

The horizon is a coordinate singularity only. This can be seen by looking at the curvature tensor, or just using a good set of coordinates (i.e. Kruskal coordinates) you will see this. This means that, while the horizon appears to be a singularity in the Schwarzchild corrdinates, a suitable change of variables aleviates the problem.

So, I don't know who told you there was a singularity at the horizon, but I think they're wrong.

He says this, because both theories or speculations cannot be disproven.... deja vu... After all, we can only speculate on the true nature of such systems

[MetaKron]

You really do have a stick up your butt.

You give yourself too much credit.

[superluminal]

You give yourself too much credit.

Huh? Wha?

[BenTheMan]

So, ben, what is the real mechanism at work here? (assuming we can still observe the particle even though it's light is red-shifted into the long radio portion of the spectrum).

Basically, the infalling observer gets an infinite time dialation relative to your (stationary) reference frame.

He says this, because both theories or speculations cannot be disproven.... deja vu... After all, we can only speculate on the true nature of such systems

Not really. It is quite clear that the event horizon is only a coordinate singularity. Most students who have given a GR book only a cursory glance can tell you this.

Tell me, does everything you know about physics come from pop science books?

[MetaKron]

This is what i meant. Sorry if i sounded incoherent.

Really? What's amazing here is that Superluminal actually seems to understand that the singularity at the event horizon is a "coordinate singularity" only. If he goes on about the coordinate singularity having a physical meaning he won't be the first one I've seen go both ways on that subject.

What I meant was that I think that people are confusing the coordinate singularity with the object being frozen in time (what I meant by "frozen"), when the time spent there is actually zero. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think that in this set of equations there is nothing that says what time rate the object in question experiences compared to the outside, but when you do the math for right there at that infinitely thin boundary condition, you only have one point in time. Also, the temporal rate is going to be related to the actual gravitational stress at the event horizon. I haven't yet seen anyone mention at what remove the event horizon is from regular time.

[MetaKron]

Huh? Wha?

It will come to you eventually.

[Reiku]

Basically, the infalling observer gets an infinite time dialation relative to your (stationary) reference frame.



Not really. It is quite clear that the event horizon is only a coordinate singularity. Most students who have given a GR book only a cursory glance can tell you this.

Tell me, does everything you know about physics come from pop science books?

A coordinated system, Ben n' super, is a system which has a directionality about it. Sinularities of boundaries, such as a Kerr Singularity CANNOT have a coordination.

1. Because all physical rules break down at singularities,

and

2. A Boundary can only be passed once, therego, there is no coordinated system that allows something to enter and leave, unless mangled and spat out like a peice of junk through information tunelling.

[Reiku]

Really? What's amazing here is that Superluminal actually seems to understand that the singularity at the event horizon is a "coordinate singularity" only. If he goes on about the coordinate singularity having a physical meaning he won't be the first one I've seen go both ways on that subject.

What I meant was that I think that people are confusing the coordinate singularity with the object being frozen in time (what I meant by "frozen"), when the time spent there is actually zero. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I think that in this set of equations there is nothing that says what time rate the object in question experiences compared to the outside, but when you do the math for right there at that infinitely thin boundary condition, you only have one point in time. Also, the temporal rate is going to be related to the actual gravitational stress at the event horizon. I haven't yet seen anyone mention at what remove the event horizon is from regular time.

Exactly. Imperviously omniscient information here. It would be good for super and ben to get off their high horses.

[draqon]

wait...so Reiku do you or do you not believe that God exists? because from what you wrote it seems you do believe in God.

[superluminal]

A coordinated system, Ben n' super, is a system which has a directionality about it. Sinularities of boundaries, such as a Kerr Singularity CANNOT have a coordination.

1. Because all physical rules break down at singularities,

and

2. A Boundary can only be passed once, therego, there is no coordinated system that allows something to enter and leave, unless mangled and spat out like a peice of junk through information tunelling.

What does any of this mean?

A coordinate system is simply a method of measuring things against a chosen reference. There is no "directionality" inherent in a coordinate system itself. Vectors in a coordinate system have directionality as specified with respect to a coordinate system.

A coordinate singularity is one in which a coordinate transfom can (happily) remove infinities (singularities) from your descriptive equations. An actual singularity you are stuck with.

[BenTheMan]

super---

there is a theorem in differential geometry that says no one coordinate system can define an entire manifold---essentially there are always coordinate singulatities. For example, what are the longitude and lattitude of the north pole?

The event horizon is just a coordinate singularity. Mathematically there is nothing special about it.

Reiku is just regurgitating words that he read in some book. He does that a lot.

[draqon]

For example, what are the longitude and lattitude of the north pole?

0,0?

[superluminal]

super---

there is a theorem in differential geometry that says no one coordinate system can define an entire manifold---essentially there are always coordinate singulatities. For example, what are the longitude and lattitude of the north pole?

The event horizon is just a coordinate singularity. Mathematically there is nothing special about it.

Good example. Thanks.

[BenTheMan]

0,0?

The point is that they are multiply defined. Why not 360, 360?

[Reiku]

wait...so Reiku do you or do you not believe that God exists? because from what you wrote it seems you do believe in God.

Good quest.

I said, ''I do not believe God would allow a totally lawless region in spacetime.''

My solution is that HE is such a singularity> God is the lawless boundary we call the singulairty, since HE can do anything.

In short, God i do believe to exist. Just misunderstood.