Star Wars vs Star Trek

[Apocalypse2001]

I'm sorry to say that contending against the technobabble as unrealistic in our modern understanding of the universe doesn't really argue against it.

Originally Posted by Arthur C. Clark
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

We are talking about scientifically adavanced societies; which means they have a different knowledge base than we have now. Just because we fail to understand the technology is no argument that it cannot work. The technobabble can have similar terms to what we have now but describe fundamentally different things; the language evolves to describe our constantly changing understanding of the world. Look at the changing conceptualization of the atom, yet we retain the same word for it.

There you go; an explanation that doesn't argue on the grounds that it is science fiction but rather argues the linguistic nature of the technobabble.

heh....i mentioned that before too

[Kittamaru]

like trek has better.

go on,you'll opinion on the scrips counts less than 0.
for you'll knowledge,SW had won more praises from critics than most other movies.SW is a classic, which i can't say to much about ST.

for instance:
Highest-grossing film seriesStar Wars-3th.
Highest worldwide openingsStar Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 5th
Highest-grossing filmsStar Wars Episode IV: A New Hope 7th.

and won many more awards for script,actors,director,story,special effects,etc.
hahahaha

Red Herring, and nothing more... you, sir, fail at debating.

[Kittamaru]

normally yes but the water was shot under grate pressure.

That wouldn't matter worth a damn... it would STILL be scattered by the near-terminal velocity windblasts.

[Apocalypse2001]

like trek has better.

go on,you'll opinion on the scrips counts less than 0.
for you'll knowledge,SW had won more praises from critics than most other movies.SW is a classic, which i can't say to much about ST.

for instance:
Highest-grossing film seriesStar Wars-3th.
Highest worldwide openingsStar Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 5th
Highest-grossing filmsStar Wars Episode IV: A New Hope 7th.

and won many more awards for script,actors,director,story,special effects,etc.
hahahaha

umm 1) so fucking wrong
2)complete and utter bullshit
3)totally clueless, and bullshit

1) The highest grossing film series of all time is the James Bond
series, which has grossed a total of $4.3 billion worldwide.

2) the highest worldwide opening, unfortunately, is the LOTR rip-off:
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Warner Bros. $394,022,354(US) 2009

3) Highest grossing film of all time:
Gone with the Wind
Adjusted Gross: $1,450,680,400
Unadjusted Gross: $198,676,459
Year: 1939
Studio: MGM

jesus christ even 101 Dalmations made more money than 2 of the 3 old SW films!

[alpinedigital]

normally yes but the water was shot under grate pressure.

THAT shows just what kind of understanding you have of physics.


Tell you what... why don't you find that scene on youtube, post the link, then we'll estimate how fast they were traveling and get the math wizards to crunch the numbers for us. There is certainly not enough pressure to counter the effects of a ship traveling that fast through . Get a clue! You can see gravity pulls the stream of water downward, so the wind drag from traveling at whatever speed they're coming in out of control at would pretty much scatter that water into a mist as soon as it left the nozzle.

Don't forget, SW stuff is always made to be traveling REAL fast. Conclusion: You cannot get a stream of water to fly through 500MPH cross winds.

[alpinedigital]

So somebody get the math confirmed: Blink of an Eye has a planet that rotates 58 times per minute. That's 58 days times 60 min per hour times 24 hrs per earth day, and divide that number of days by 356 to compare the passage of time per 1 year of our own time. Is that about right?
60 min per hour x 24 hrs x 58 = 83520 days divided by 365 = 228.8+ or almost 2.3 centuries each earth year. If my math is wrong, that'd be really embarrassing. LOL

And imagine we have a timeship, phasing temporal weapons, cloaks that allow a ship to pass thru solid matter, and planets that evolve so fast you could hardly blurt out the command to raise shields before they detected your approach and made plans to sell the remains of your fleet to the highest bidder... The highest potential to evolve trumps everything except Q... which is why the Borg was always the worst threat. Because they evolved to make weapons ineffective.


Anyway, FTW:

[Sardonic Crisis]

like trek has better.

go on,you'll opinion on the scrips counts less than 0.
for you'll knowledge,SW had won more praises from critics than most other movies.SW is a classic, which i can't say to much about ST.

for instance:
Highest-grossing film seriesStar Wars-3th.
Highest worldwide openingsStar Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 5th
Highest-grossing filmsStar Wars Episode IV: A New Hope 7th.

and won many more awards for script,actors,director,story,special effects,etc.
hahahaha

Appeal to common opinion is a fallacious argument.

I could argue that Dune is superior based off of it being one of the best classic scifi novels and that George Lucas admittedly took many ideas from Frank Herbert's novels along with Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress to create SW. However, we are arguing what universe would win in a multiversal war and not who would win in originality or a popularity contest. That you bit at the "quality of SW argument" means you went after a red herring. Although, you didn't present the red herring, that was Alpinedigital.

[Sardonic Crisis]

So somebody get the math confirmed: Blink of an Eye has a planet that rotates 58 times per minute. That's 58 days times 60 min per hour times 24 hrs per earth day, and divide that number of days by 356 to compare the passage of time per 1 year of our own time. Is that about right?
60 min per hour x 24 hrs x 58 = 83520 days divided by 365 = 228.8+ or almost 2.3 centuries each earth year. If my math is wrong, that'd be really embarrassing. LOL

And imagine we have a timeship, phasing temporal weapons, cloaks that allow a ship to pass thru solid matter, and planets that evolve so fast you could hardly blurt out the command to raise shields before they detected your approach and made plans to sell the remains of your fleet to the highest bidder... The highest potential to evolve trumps everything except Q... which is why the Borg was always the worst threat. Because they evolved to make weapons ineffective.

On the Dune side:
1. Borg are ineffectual on the Dune universe due to the Bene Gesserit ability to consciously modify their own biochemistry; this may result in a Reverend Mother actually taking over a Borg hive by subverting the nanites.

2. The Q might not even take part in this war, what would be their motive?

3. Leto II set forth the Golden Path to preserve humanity; his prescient ability likely foresaw a conflict between universes thousands of years prior to this clash. Accelerated time cannot compete with foreknowledge.

"The first step in evading a trap is knowing it is there."
-Leto I (paraphrased)

[Sardonic Crisis]

Aside from the well established technological supremacy of the Star Wars galaxy, I think the main reason why Star Wars would win is the Force.

As Vader said, no technological terror is a match for the Force. A prime example of this: the ancient Lords of the Sith.

Darth Nihilus, for instance, used his Force powers to rip an entire fleet from the crushing grip of gravity created by the Mass Shadow Generator and the gravity of the planet Malachor V. Not only that, but the ships in the fleet were in pieces, smashed by enemy guns and the Mass Shadow Generator. Yet Nihilus' will power held the ships together; not only that, but despite the lack of life support he kept the crew on the ships just barely alive.

Nihilus used Force Drain to devastating affect; he killed off entire planets simply to sate his hunger for life.

Imagine what would happen if the Enterprise came against him. Nihilus would stand on the bridge of his shattered flagship and kill off the Enterprise through Force Drain. And Force Drain was a "technique against which there is no defense," and that's for Force users, let alone "Force muggles."

Nihilus is just an example. Naga Sadow had the power to give deceased spirits bodies of flesh and blood, and create vast armies of illusions (that appear real to all sensors, and senses, and only through intense concentration in the Force can their true nature be revealed, and of course only the Star Wars universe has that on its side) across an entire galaxy. Sith Lords created dark side talismans that meant nothing and no one could touch them without their consent. Sith could create Force storms; not atmospheric disturbances, but massive storms in space composed of pure energy that could teleport victims across the galaxy, tear the surfaces off worlds and incinerate entire fleets of spaceships. And of course there is the more subtle way yet just as devastating to the enemy: dark side magic and battle meditation, causing enemies' wills to be sapped. Enemies panic and cower, while ones own forces go berserk. This effect was so potent that a single Jedi or Sith could decide the fate of a battle.

The Force surpasses any kind of technology, even in the Star Wars galaxy, where the technology surpasses the technology of Star Trek.

Yeah just wait until the Tleilaxu make midichlorians in their breeding tanks. Just imagine a Bene Gesserit force user... Epic!

[Sardonic Crisis]

yup,not only that but the description of its mechanism makes perfect sens:

The lightsaber mechanisms were contained within the hilt. High levels of energy generated by a high-output Diatium power cell was unleashed through a series of focusing lenses and energizers that converted the energy into plasma. The plasma was projected through a set of focusing crystals that lent the blade its properties and allowed for the adjustment of blade length and power output. The ideal number of crystals was three, though only one was required.[3]

Once focused by the crystals, the plasma was sent through a series of field energizers and modulation circuitry within the emitter matrix that further focused it, making it into a coherent beam of energy that was projected from the emitter. The blade typically extended about a meter before being arced by the blade containment field back to a negatively charged fissure ringing the emitter, where it was channeled back to the power cell by a superconductor, completing the circuit

considering they did manage to build them,for thousand of years before the empire,just proves they'll technological superiority.
the SW ships also do,as do they'll weapons,planetary shield ,medical technology, cybernetic limb replacements,whole body cybernetic replacements like Grievous,most advance Artificial Intelligence imagine with robots capable of human level intelligence, they'll energy production technology,hyperdrives capable of millions of C,city planets like Coruscant and Taris,and i could continue for some time with this.

for example a class 1.0 Hyperdrive motivator was capable of speeds in excess of one hundred million times the speed of light.

1. The problem with lightsabers is that the heat from the plasma would make it impossible to hold the weapon. Hell, we could make them now with proper use of magnetic fields. So, this doesn't really show how advanced SW is at all.

2. Are you saying that hyperspace travel is feasible in the same way SW uses it?

On the Dune side (George1 not likely to respond):

1. Cybernetics on par with your SW correlates.

2. Foldspace travel > Hyperspace travel

3. Screw AI, Mentats are human computers.

4. Holtzman shields are a great boon until sustained beam weapons are used on them; then you have an unpredictable explosion on the quantum level.

5. Cloning tech that can restore the memories of the original person; which is far better than the cloning ability of SW.

6. Holtzman equations, which are used for a great many things besides shields. This includes No-fields, folding space for instantaneous travel, anti-grav suspensors, etc.

[Sardonic Crisis]

umm 1) so fucking wrong
2)complete and utter bullshit
3)totally clueless, and bullshit

1) The highest grossing film series of all time is the James Bond
series, which has grossed a total of $4.3 billion worldwide.

2) the highest worldwide opening, unfortunately, is the LOTR rip-off:
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Warner Bros. $394,022,354(US) 2009

3) Highest grossing film of all time:
Gone with the Wind
Adjusted Gross: $1,450,680,400
Unadjusted Gross: $198,676,459
Year: 1939
Studio: MGM

jesus christ even 101 Dalmations made more money than 2 of the 3 old SW films!

You missed the rankings he placed within those statements. He never said they were number one in those categories. But this is all irrelevant in the current debate.

[Sardonic Crisis]

What bothers me is the focus on technological capabilities when there are many other factors to take into account. There are political landscapes, racial psychology and motivations, resources, economics, opposing theories on strategy and tactics, etc. It is so much easier to debate power output and tech superiority than enter into the realms I mentioned, which are a far more interesting debate in IMHO.

I argue for the type of debate I mentioned because the technological aspect would become muddled by tech stealing anyway. Unless you think that neither universe would try to get the others tech, but that would be a strategic blunder for either side. The technology is there to see how it can be used for a strategic advantage until the other side equalizes the situation.

However, a valid question would be what technology would the other side not be able to get their hands on, or how long would it take to finally buy someone off to get said tech.

[ricrery]

I wish I could say that I'm shocked that the little child found someone whose just as much as a fanboy as he is.

What?! He said 31st century Federation can beat Xeelee, and I'm a fanboy? But you also said they were on par with Time Lords, so I'm going to ignore fanboys like you two.

[alpinedigital]

On the Dune side:

2. The Q might not even take part in this war, what would be their motive?

This is still kind of the worst frickin attempt to sidestep having to deal with the Q Continuum that SW side can use.

You have parties on side A saying we're gonna bring it to parties on side B. The victory is only attained by having everyone surrendered, captured, or dead. Maybe we'll say if they escape, run and hide, etc... that's as good as surrendering.
The way I see it, there are only 2 ways you can see this:
1. The Q continuum won't be defeated
2. The Q continuum MIGHT not wish to be involved.
Either way, you won't can't win against them, AND those beings are from the Trek verse.

Not to mention the thread topic says:
"if the two universes collided and had to do battle with each other... who would emerge victorious?"
'HAD TO, do battle' is how I interpret that. I don't see anything that says 'UNLESS' so anything and any species in the Trek verse can be called into play, and we're using anything and everything at our disposal that benefits the cause.

However, if you're hoping to claim Q would be key, you'd be wrong. There's still time travel. Argue all you want about changes in history not effecting the original timeline - because that argument only works against that specific idea. But the thing about 'cause and effect' with time travel is the effect can actually precede the cause.

[alpinedigital]

what technology would the other side not be able to get their hands on, or how long would it take to finally buy someone off to get said tech.

One species we know (The Borg) does that anyway. Its their nature. They'll take it by force, or infect their enemy to 'become' them and acquire it that way. Worst case scenario, they can always disperse the nanoprobes like biological warfare... and I seriously doubt they can be completely eliminated. Trek must have like 10-15 different ways of traveling at FTL speeds and I'd say the Borg probably know most of them. Besides, straight battle to kill the enemy is not their way. They effectively 'spread' to increase their numbers and expand their territory. If 100 of theirs wins a fight with 100 of yours, they're going to have their survivors and up to 100 extras.

To answer the question about bargaining for tech - I think each side would employ their best thieves to acquire it.

[Sardonic Crisis]

This is still kind of the worst frickin attempt to sidestep having to deal with the Q Continuum that SW side can use.

1. I'm not supporting the SW side.

2. I don't think it's an invalid point to bring up.

You have parties on side A saying we're gonna bring it to parties on side B. The victory is only attained by having everyone surrendered, captured, or dead. Maybe we'll say if they escape, run and hide, etc... that's as good as surrendering.
The way I see it, there are only 2 ways you can see this:
1. The Q continuum won't be defeated
2. The Q continuum MIGHT not wish to be involved.
Either way, you won't can't win against them, AND those beings are from the Trek verse.

1. The Swiss aren't considered winners because they decided to be neutral. So your second point doesn't grant ST the win.

2. You present a criterion for victory that falls under the "false alternatives" fallacy. Political dominance could be considered a victory as well as cultural dominance or even ideological dominance. Your conditions for victory are too myopic.

3. For Dune, Norma Cenva would be a counter for the Q if they were to be involved.

Not to mention the thread topic says:
"if the two universes collided and had to do battle with each other... who would emerge victorious?"
'HAD TO, do battle' is how I interpret that. I don't see anything that says 'UNLESS' so anything and any species in the Trek verse can be called into play, and we're using anything and everything at our disposal that benefits the cause.

This could be interpreted in a number of ways:

1. Battle doesn't necessarily mean war. It could be a battle of wits or something of that sort (not saying that it is of course). Now, if it originally said that the universes would be at war, then that's a different story. I would consider "battle" as "conflict" and one universe attempts to gain superiority over the other.

2. The "had to" merely implies there is no stopping the crossover and that the universes are permanently linked together so that they must come into conflict.

3. The "who would emerge victorious" doesn't designate the options as either ST or SW but leaves it open for interpretation. One possible interpretation is that a particular faction of one universe will find superiority along with a faction from the other universe because they had a diplomatic battle and generated an alliance from it.

However, if you're hoping to claim Q would be key, you'd be wrong. There's still time travel. Argue all you want about changes in history not effecting the original timeline - because that argument only works against that specific idea. But the thing about 'cause and effect' with time travel is the effect can actually precede the cause.

1. Only in a strictly linear conception of time. It can be argued, with merit, that time travel wouldn't operate the same in another universe based off of the conception of time that is explicitly or implicitly presented by said universe.

2. With Dune, you have to take into account prescience. Several thousand years before the conflict starts, Leto II sets in motion preventative measures against a future time-traveling ship that will be sent back to stop the Dune universe thereby stopping a temporal incursion before ST even has the idea (and this and the following points assumes time-travel would be possible in the Dune universe).

3. Also with Dune, The Scattering sent humanity out to unknowable reaches of space. Foldspace engines can even be made to jump to another universe which would set those that left the Dune universe outside of the timeline change.

4. Lastly with any contending universe, those that have already crossed into the opposing universe would be sheltered from the timeline change because they are outside of their universe's timeline. This would allow for a return to the Dune universe to restore the changes that had been made.

Personally, I think time-travel is bullshit, but I am forced to deal with it because of it being canon in ST.

[BigFairy]

Go the Star Wars!

[George1]

umm 1) so fucking wrong
2)complete and utter bullshit
3)totally clueless, and bullshit

1) The highest grossing film series of all time is the James Bond
series, which has grossed a total of $4.3 billion worldwide.

2) the highest worldwide opening, unfortunately, is the LOTR rip-off:
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Warner Bros. $394,022,354(US) 2009

3) Highest grossing film of all time:
Gone with the Wind
Adjusted Gross: $1,450,680,400
Unadjusted Gross: $198,676,459
Year: 1939
Studio: MGM

jesus christ even 101 Dalmations made more money than 2 of the 3 old SW films!

i didn't say FIRST.
Highest-grossing film seriesStar Wars-3th PLACE.
Highest worldwide openingsStar Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 5th PLACE
Highest-grossing filmsStar Wars Episode IV: A New Hope 7th PLACE.

[George1]

THAT shows just what kind of understanding you have of physics.


Tell you what... why don't you find that scene on youtube, post the link, then we'll estimate how fast they were traveling and get the math wizards to crunch the numbers for us. There is certainly not enough pressure to counter the effects of a ship traveling that fast through . Get a clue! You can see gravity pulls the stream of water downward, so the wind drag from traveling at whatever speed they're coming in out of control at would pretty much scatter that water into a mist as soon as it left the nozzle.

Don't forget, SW stuff is always made to be traveling REAL fast. Conclusion: You cannot get a stream of water to fly through 500MPH cross winds.

500MPH?so you were there to measure how fast the wind and the ships were traveling? first of all when they started the water jets the Emergency firespeeder was at close range,second of all this gave the strong jet less time to be scatter by the wind,third of all the Invisible Hand was losing speed,forth of all we don't know anything about the atmosphere of Coruscant and fifth of all they were already below the clouds.
suck this and next time analyze the facts.

[George1]

Appeal to common opinion is a fallacious argument.

I could argue that Dune is superior based off of it being one of the best classic scifi novels and that George Lucas admittedly took many ideas from Frank Herbert's novels along with Kurosawa's Hidden Fortress to create SW. However, we are arguing what universe would win in a multiversal war and not who would win in originality or a popularity contest. That you bit at the "quality of SW argument" means you went after a red herring. Although, you didn't present the red herring, that was Alpinedigital.

well,lets see...wining in originality or a popularity contest.
STARGATE life sucks huh?